Tina Santiago-Keenan: Leaving tech, creating immersive experiences for people IRL

In this conversation, Courtney Kaplan interviews Tina Santiago-Keenan, co-founder of Secret City, a creative design and production studio that creates immersive experiences. Tina shares her journey from working in tech at Facebook and Uber Eats to launching Secret City, which combines elements of escape rooms and immersive theater. The discussion covers the challenges of entrepreneurship, the impact of the pandemic, and the importance of community and in-person experiences. Tina also offers insights on career transitions, balancing work and family, and the future of Secret City.

Links:

Website: https://secretcity.studio/

Social Links: https://www.instagram.com/secretcityadventures/

Learn More: https://www.secretcityadventures.com/

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Tina Santiago-Keenan and Secret City
05:35 Tina's Career Journey and Transition to Secret City
10:53 Challenges in the Early Days of Secret City
21:48 Navigating Challenges During COVID-19
27:08 The Importance of In-Person Connections
32:04 Advice for Career Transitions
36:29 Balancing Parenthood and Entrepreneurship
40:21 Introduction to Tina's Journey
42:53 The Importance of Patience and Testing Ideas
44:18 Leveraging Existing Skills and Collaboration

EVOLUTION OR REVOLUTION is produced by Courtney Kaplan.

Website: Iconic Leadership Coaching.

Follow me on IG @iconicleadershipcoaching

Connect on Linked in @courtney-kaplan 

Music by Midwest Got It (IG: midwestgotit)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Evolution or Revolution, a podcast about making big changes in your professional life. Our guests give us the inside scoop about how they did it. We hear the origin stories, the wins, the challenges, and we get generous advice that can help you in your own life. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Courtney Kaplan. I'm a coach and I'm a founder of Iconic Leadership Coaching. And I've always been fascinated by these kinds of transformations. Let the stories in evolution or revolution inspire you. Open your mind and build confidence that you can make the changes that you need to make as well. Thanks for listening. Hello, it's Courtney Kaplan, and today I'm so excited to talk to Tina Santiago Keenan. Tina is someone with deep experience in product design and in the technology world. She spent years at Facebook helping 75 million small businesses grow and connect with the Facebook Pages team. And then she joined the Facebook Portal team, helping launch the first portal product. After that, Tina moved on to Uber Eats. So she definitely has deep experience in the digital world, product design. But today she's not working on apps or screens or digital products, but she's helping real people in the real world come together in shared stories and in unexpected ways. Today, Tina is the co-founder of Secret City in Toronto, Ontario, and we'll talk more about that in a bit. So, Tina, I'm so curious to hear about your journey. Welcome to Evolution or Revolution. Thanks for having me, Courtney. So nice to connect with you again. I'm so I'm so happy to see you. So first I want to start out. Could you just explain to our listeners like what is Secret City today? What a little bit about what is Secret City and what is it today?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, so um Secret City is a creative design and production studio. So we do everything from writing to developing to designing, producing, and then also doing the marketing, operating, um, immersive location-based experiences. So kind of think um escape room meets immersive theater. Um, and that is essentially like we're we're we're kind of recreating live video games for people to enjoy in interesting spaces. So we're um our our flagship um experiences are at Casaloma here in Toronto, which is uh a castle in the middle of the city. So we're in two different towers, a tunnel, a hunting lodge, um, and we have you know four or five games there with you know kernels of history of the space, and then sort of a fictionalized story that that we built upon upon that history. Um we're also at a village called the uh village at Black Creek, just outside of the city. Um, and there you get to run around, do puzzles in the dark. Um you go to get to visit the tin house, the schoolhouse, um, and meet some interesting characters there. Um and most recently we partnered uh actually with Netflix um their knives out film series. Um we we partnered with that team to develop something called the perfect bite. And it's a four-course meal. Um, and it's it's essentially an elevated murder mystery dinner. Um, so every course reveals a dark a piece of the dark history from the past. Um, there are six characters, and the food is actually part of the puzzle. So as you take bites throughout the evening, you you solve a mystery. So we've been running that for about two years. Um, and I'm very proud of what we've done. We've uh done a lot of um, we've also scaled to other cities, um, and we have a 4.8 Google review star. I'm I'm very proud of that because that's that's not easy to keep consistent.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

It's a big deal. It's a lot of people out there to please to keep your reviews high. And it's a big deal. That's amazing. So Secret City is allowing people to come together in person, solve mysteries, play games, be in these amazing, it sounds like historic spaces and unusual spaces, and just have a lot of fun. This is very, very cool. And in this, you're as a co-founder, what does your role look like today?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Um, well, I'm currently sitting on the in the hot seat of the CEO um of the company. It we were running this for uh for 10 years. So this is our 10th year. Previously, it was it was a side hustle, and it was only five years ago that I um really worked, started to work full-time and and build a team. So we have we've built uh a team of eight full-time um staff. Uh we have over a hundred actors and performers and and operations people. Um, and so day to day, uh I'm doing mostly the business development side of things. I'm definitely part of the creative um development process as well. I don't think I could ever not be. Um that's why I started this. Um yeah, and it's uh it's it's exciting because we're we're developing games, we're also um remounting uh and doing a lot of operations in different in different spaces.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

It's amazing. So, Tina, as I was getting ready to talk to you, we had talked quickly last week for a bit. I was thinking about like the span of what your organization needs to do as far as creative conception, right? Like the big idea, but then also the specifics of how someone navigates a space and also ensuring that that's a fun, rewarding experience. Plus, you're building out spaces like set design or costume design. Sounds like you're working with a cast of actors, like there's a lot of moving parts together to pull this together in order for someone to be able to buy, not even mentioning marketing, right? So that someone could be aware of it and buy a ticket and go see it, whatever. So I was just thinking about the breadth of what your organization does just to get one of these experiences off the ground. And it's quite it's it's huge.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

It's a lot, it is a lot, and um, to me also make sure the quality stays consistent. Um, you know, I I love our performers, they're improv actors, and so um we have to trust, you know, that that things will go as you know, generally scripted. Um yeah, it's a lot, but I have an amazing team. I I that's I I will give all the credit to an amazing team that um that we work with.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

It's amazing. So on evolution or revolution, what I want to do is try and help people see kind of behind the scenes what it's like for someone to transition careers. And um, so if you could go all the way back to 10, maybe 11 years ago, could you help me understand a little bit about what your life was like at that point? Where were you working? Where were you living? You know, before this started, where what was what was happening in your life?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, totally. So this was like 2000. So I did um, okay, so I'm gonna where should I start? I I actually, after graduating from university, I um went into film. So I studied psychology. What do you do with a psychology degree? You either go back to school or figure something out. Um and I decided to go into film. So I went from psychology to I did a postgraduate in media studies. Um and and then I decided to do an MBA. So I moved to Europe for a couple of years. I did an MBA there and then moved to San Francisco with no job and absolutely no idea what I was going to do there. And I just I had coffee after coffee after coffee and networked like crazy. Um, actually met Francisco from Hot Studio and he introduced me to um Wendy Owen. And um, I felt like such an imposter. Um, like I knew some design, uh, but I was definitely coming more from like a strategy, um, kind of I felt really weird calling myself a UX designer, and I was really like learning on the job. Um, and I think I just felt like that my whole time at in tech, and I think that's just the nature of being a designer and being in tech, is you you have to constantly be learning. There's like new tools constantly that you have to be proficient and just know inside out, like really fast. You have to really learn how to learn fast. Um I and I don't know, I know there was encouragement there. Like when you feel like you are an imposter, um I think for me it was like knowing that other people were also feeling that as well gave me some comfort. Um but I think it was really, I got really nervous when I had to present designs that I didn't really have that much conviction around or that I had to like turn around really quickly. I just remember being so nervous doing these like you know, cross-functional presentations of these designs. And I I I hated it. Like I I loved doing the design work and I loved, you know, working in small teams and like and that process, but um, I'm even nervous doing this podcast. I I don't like public speaking. I hate it hated doing those presentations. Um and I think that was always um just so heavy for me during that time. It was always that would happen like every two weeks, and I just had a lot of anxiety around that. Um, and I think uh the thing that helped me was having a high side hustle, like having something that like gave me energy versus like take away energy. Um that was something that I just kind of discovered.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So it's it's really interesting because I think in the world of design, especially in product design, people don't realize how um how fast you have to move and how much conviction you have to have in your direction, even if you haven't had that much time. Because um there's just not a lot of time to imagine things or try a lot of things out. They really want you to move quickly, so the pressure's on. It can really be a pressure cooker in that way. So you had a side hustle. And what was the side hustle and how did that start?

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah. So my husband and I um on our honeymoon, we like went to Asia and did all the escape rooms. We were like obsessed. Um our first one was actually in San Francisco. It was a Japanese company called Scrap Entertainment. And um we we um we experienced it and we were like, we have to bring this to Toronto. This is like so fun. I couldn't stop thinking about it. So uh we approached um the team in San Francisco to bring it over to Toronto. We were still living in San Francisco. Um, and it just so happened my my brother-in-law, my husband Patrick's brother, um, just graduated from university, was looking for a job, and we said, Hey, there's this thing we want to bring to Toronto. Would you like help us out?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Will you please be a body on the ground that takes great direction and makes bold moves and helps us bring this thing to life? Yes, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

100%. I mean, he was he's amazing, and he was like the perfect person to do so because he loves video games, he loves puzzles, um, and um, you know, and it it was something that would be fun and fulfilling for him. So we found a good, a good um kind of position for him and and supported him as he started his career. Um, but I think like, yeah, I I think working with family in these early days when you're not sure, like that was definitely a big um risk mitigation kind of factor for us, like uh to try this out and and really kind of um yeah, build build uh a small team um to start.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Yeah, I mean, I it's interesting uh looking at the hindsight's always 2020, and it's easy to look back and kind of tell a cohesive logical story about whatever happened. Um but I can imagine there was some time with you and your husband talk experiencing these escape rooms, which I imagine were new at the time. They're a little more most people maybe have experienced something like that now, but 10, 11 years ago, certainly that was pretty new. And I'm kind of curious, like, what was your first step from thinking or talking with your husband or experiencing these escape rooms to actually making that call to your brother-in-law or putting up some money or making a commitment? What was that first step and how did that feel? Because I I talked to a lot of people that have amazing ideas or hidden passions or things that they always have enjoyed, but um, not that everything needs to be a business, certainly, but it was a very different feeling of like brainstorming and kind of wondering and thinking it could be a good match to actually writing a check. So I'm curious about if there was anything you can share about what was it like to make that first commitment, be invested, take a risk. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Well, I think this first game that we saw in San Francisco was literally like um it was a room and IKEA furniture, and that's all it was. And like when we first ran through that, kind of analyzing like what does it actually cost to put this together? Can't be that much. Um, you need a space, you need rent. There were two staff and literally, yeah, the you know, IKEA furniture um living room kind of thing. Um, and you know, and some printing and stuff of that. But I think I think at first it was just, it just seemed achievable. It like seemed like a low-risk, low-hanging fruit, fruit type thing. We also um knew a bunch of people in Toronto and we started just to make some phone calls, see like, was there any space available that we could rent for six months or you know, do a month-to-month um and do something really lightweight? And uh, you know, is sort of analyzing the the the costs and uh you know what what was our break-even point if this totally went sideways? What was the most that we would lose? Um, and at that time it was$10,000 was the initial kind of investment. And um, that wasn't horrible. Like it was something that we could, we could, you know, we had to accept you had to like sit with the fact that you would lose$10,000. But you know in another way to kind of position that was like a$10,000 lesson um that we would pay for. Yeah. Because we learned, we learned a lot um either way. We would have we knew we would have learned a lot either way.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

And at that point, at that first um first escape room, the plan wasn't to end up with multiple locations and working with Netflix. It was just like, let's give it a whirl.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Absolutely, yeah. It was like, this is so cool. Toronto doesn't have it, let's just like bring this to Toronto. Um, and it was all like we knew the business model in San Francisco worked. Um, and it was really a matter of copying, pasting and that. In the back of our heads, we always knew we wanted to create our own. Like the um the idea of like making up, you know, this world building and creating characters and stories and puzzles was just like our jam. So our jam.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

That's amazing. Well, I would imagine um if you see a model that works, you know a location that it could be really amazing and have a great audience for it, then the creative part is kind of the juicy fun part after you have the kind of functioning business part nailed of understanding, I don't know, ticket sold, marketing, how you put it together, cost of putting something like this together, what what have you. So in those early days, or even in the first couple years, was there an unexpected challenge or something that happened that just made you realize, like, whoa, this is different than we expected? Or I wonder if we made the right choice, or was there anything that happened in those early days that you're like, wow, I did not expect this? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Um, permits for building things. Um, that was definitely like we were so young and naive, and like, yeah, we can just build up a wall here, um, here and there, and it's no big deal. Um, but we did end up signing a lease. So after our first um experience um space, we wanted to get a second location. So we got a second location that was more permanent, was a bigger space, um, but then learned we couldn't build to the ceiling because of um the the what's it called, the fire um the water, what do you the sprinklers? The sprinklers, exactly. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Fire suppression, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

So we couldn't build up to the ceiling because of the sprinkler system. And so we had to del we had what we did was we sold tickets before having finished building the room. So don't recommend that. Um because actually, like we um back in the day, we did these ticket releases, like we would say, you know, tickets released at 11:59 p.m. on Wednesday, and we broke Bookio, which is our booking system, because there were so many people booking tickets because people loved it. It was in it was so exciting, it was so thrilling. So um that put pressure on us to open the second location. Um, but when we did so, we got ahead of ourselves and we sold tickets with an unfinished room and permits that were not closed. So, what did we do? Um, we had I had to call up my um my friends at the Filipino Community Center and said, Can we rent your basement for like two weeks and we're just gonna build something real quick and we'll take it down and promise.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

We're just gonna build a real quick thing and we'll clean up when we're done. Just real quick.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

And so then I called my cousin's husband who does construction. He built some drywall for us. Bless his soul. Um, he was amazing, did it so fast by himself uh while we were figuring out what to do with the other space. Um, and we did it. We delivered on our promise, we sold tickets and they got to play the game, and then we eventually moved it over to the new location. So that was very um that was amateur hour on our part of um yeah, selling something without it's like it was like the OG Fire Island, you know, but but not such a bad fire festival. Yeah. Fire festival.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, I mean, when you get into like city permits and fire inspections and stuff, that's real. And there's a lot of crazy rules and regulations and timing that you just wouldn't expect unless you've unless you've been through it. And at this point, Tina, are you still in this in the San Francisco Bay Area or do you live locally in Toronto or where are you living?

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, we were still remote. We were still remote.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

So you're doing this from a the other, yeah, from another place.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yes, I mean, my so Michael was on the on the ground and I was having meetings with them um every morning, and the the time difference kind of worked um in our favor because um Toronto had some time in the morning before we woke up. Um, but yeah, I was doing a lot of this kind of management remotely back then.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Oh my gosh. And so today you live in Toronto, so you moved and when did you move? We moved back in 2018. Okay. Okay. Um and at that point in 2018, you're still working, is this still side hustle category, or are you have you moved full-time working with Secret City, or what's your employment status?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, so I was I was working for Facebook still remotely for about um six months. Um, and then I took a break, um, and I was I was, you know, still working on Secret City, but not full-time. And then I worked, I started um at Uber Eats um as a product designer. Um and I was at Uber Eats for about just over a year, and then the pandemic hit. Well, it was the pandemic that really made me reconsider everything, as many people did. So it was in 2020, the fall of 2020, that I I left um Uber and I decided to go full-time secret city. And it was also the same time uh that we had to shut everything down. Oh my gosh. We had uh yeah, we had to we had to lay off our entire staff, shut down all of our experiences. It was it was really sad. It was very, very sad time. Uh but yeah, during the pandemic, um as I was working at Uber Eats, it just I had a kindergartner on the Zoom trying to do kindergarten. I had my Zoom, like it was just like it was horrible. And I and I just I was like, I need to just stop this first for a hot second.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, I hear ya. I think in 2020 I had started, just started my coaching practice, freshly minted coach, ready to get out there and and get rolling. And um, in this office where I'm recording now, there's a wall, and behind me on the other side, we had set up like two little workstations for my two little kids back there. I had a fifth grader and a second grader at that time. And um, it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible of trying to check in with them. And uh I definitely just downgraded what I was doing to kind of help focus on them. Luckily, their school opened up earlier than some schools, and they were able to go back to school. But those were those were some days when I would just hear my son slam his little laptop shut. I knew I was like, I gotta get over there. What's happening on the other side of the wall, kids? Um so at that point, did you think Secret City was over? Like it was a good run and it was finished, or did you have hope that things would change for the future? Or where where was your head? Or were you just kind of busy with the emergencies at hand with COVID and young children?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah, good question. I guess um that was also a time where I I also started to build a product design services business that was still part of the studio. So I was, I still had one foot um in tech and was doing some contract work. And I was also I I had also been teaching at a at a um I think it was called Brain, Brain Academy or something here in Toronto. Uh I was teaching a UX uh design course and uh one of my students uh was looking for work, and so I hired her on. Um, and she's still um with us today, but she was my first employee on this on the product design side of things. So I was like, at that time, I was just hustling, like trying to figure out how to keep things afloat, like how can I bring things back? Um, we had also pivoted, as they say, um during COVID, and we did a lot of virtual stuff. So we had um we actually had actors go in with a camera um to our escape rooms and then hosted um team building. And it worked because a lot of people were miserable and lonely during that time and like and people are desperate for things to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Like we were all on, I mean, I remember like Zoom happy hours and yeah, people trying to think of things to do for team building and all of that. So yeah, and I appreciate that, you know, um, you also expanded to do some consulting and some teaching because I think we don't talk about that often either, right? When we're starting new initiatives or starting a new chapter in our lives, often we use our old skills to consult or freelance or take a couple clients or be a partial, you know, part-time employee or what have you. And I don't think that that though those are things that get edited out in the, you know, hindsight is 2020 and someone's telling their story of how they got to where they are. We often forget maybe about the side projects or the way we expanded our services for a little while or what have you. Um and so it's important to remember that even though we start, everyone comes up to some bumps in the road, and we've got to be creative and kind of continue to put things together. So wow, that sounds yeah, that sounds like a pretty critical time.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

So was that a couple years of that that direction, or yeah, it was at least till 2022 for sure. Cause I remember we oh we opened up again for a period and then we had to shut down again. So I think we I think that happened like two times where we had to shut down completely and then open up again. Um, and that meant rehiring, revamping, like dis disinfecting the rooms. What was our policy, like COVID policy?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Protocols, what's the policy? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah. So it wasn't a fun time. I mean, we did get some government support um that really helped us stay afloat as well. And we had to stay really lean and and like um to really choose a core small team to just um to to help us ramp back up. Uh but um yeah, we we survived it. I'm like, I'm yeah, very, very grateful that we were able to pick ourselves back up.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, that is no joke. To to make it through those years um is a big, big deal. Requires a lot of creativity and a lot of flexibility. Yeah, yeah. It was the dark days. Yeah. Yeah. And then today, and I don't know what's happening in Toronto more throughout the city, but in Oakland today, there's such a big movement towards people getting back together in person, gathering spaces, community spaces. There seems like there's a resurgence of classes or experiences. Um, you know, I noticed like all the there, there's like a knitting gathering at a coffee shop, and I saw her post her picture, and it was packed with people. Like people want to be back together. They just want to come back and spend time together, do things in real life, in in spaces. And have you noticed something similar in Toronto? Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

I mean, I just think people want to like smell each other's pheromones in the air. I don't know if that's the thing that's missing. That we just, it's it's like an implicit like need that we all have. Um I absolutely, I think I I really have a lot of conviction in this like low being in the same place together and like having experienced something together and being able to look back at something together. Like, I think you know, our news feed bubbles have created very isolating realities and um and it's very it's been divisive. Like, I'm not I think technology has done a lot of great things for us, but I think um the other side of that is like um finding ways to have a shared story, right? Like a shared thing that you can like, you know, back in the day it was like the six o'clock news, we could all watch it, watch it together, and we had the same information and we could talk about it. Even like watching TV was like, oh, did you see that episode yes like last yesterday? It was amazing. Um, but we're all watching things at different times, and um and I think I think that's uh that's a something that's really um yeah, kind of fractured society in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Absolutely, absolutely. I think, you know, even being able to generationally refer to the same television show references or pop culture references, where today it's so fractured and so different. Even my dear friend always is telling me about what she's watching on Apple TV, and she's like, Oh, you don't subscribe to Apple TV, you can't watch it. Like these like subscription services and which ones you subscribe to at the moment and why, and all of that stuff just really divides and further kind of fragments that. So being in person, doing something together in real life with friends or strangers or community members, or whatever seems like such um so much of what people want. So much of what people want.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

I I really think so. And I think the um added thing that I think we offer that is very in tune with like, you know, this generation is the participation part. Um like I think it's not just about watching. I think we we have we're now we have a generation who has grown up expecting to like a thing or somehow have influence on a thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think um, and I think there's just something really interesting about meeting that expectation uh through theater. Um and and uh and and and inviting people to participate in the story and not just sit back and watch.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah, that's amazing. That's very cool. Um so right now it seems like the technology sector is pretty dynamic, fairly uncertain, lots of layoffs, shifting, changing. Um, even working in technology companies has really lost a lot of the shine, I think, that there used to be in those jobs and in those roles. Um, so you know, if there's someone listening to this in their cubicle or on a Zoom call or on a commute or wherever they might be who is not happy in their job and who may have had thoughts of doing something different. Do you have any advice for someone who, you know, knows they're unhappy, isn't sure what they might want to do next, but they're ready for a big change?

SPEAKER_01 30:06

I think that it's such a it was such a like slow, slow boil for me, I think, like to to come to realize. Like I remember feeling really nervous not being in Figma, you know, Figma tool designing, pushing pixels. Like that made me really nervous because I felt like I um I'm not gonna have a the skill, I'm not gonna be as valuable in the market if I don't know how to do this thing. Um and that made me really nervous. And I think uh I think the way that I came to terms with that was was trying and testing other things. And um and also for me it was building a team that really helped. And if if that's an option, like finding partners, or um I I did work with my husband and my brother-in-law for quite some time. So finding people you really trust that you can you can take a risk with um feels like you know, a safe kind of way to transition from one place to another. Um I also think that like uh you can also take breaks. Like I think leaving a job and think and thinking about what you want to do next is also an okay thing to do. And for and during COVID, I don't know, that was sort of for me, uh it was like a non-decision. Like I just couldn't do what was demanded of me. Like right.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

The break was given to you whether you wanted it or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah. Um, and and always like you can pick it up again. You can um you can try a different I think you know, some belief some level of belief in yourself, I think is also really important. And and determination of just like, and I think determination comes when you know what you want. And I think knowing what you want comes from really trying stuff and testing and exploring. So I don't really have a straight answer of advice. I think I think it's also like maybe acknowledging again what things give you energy versus takes energy away from you. Because I think um that was a big one for me, just noticing uh how much like when I do pitches today, I feel so much more comfortable because I I have conviction in the thing that I'm doing. I actually believe it, I am passionate about it. Um and so like that that energy is like it's addictive, and like I look for it and I notice it. And um yeah, when I compare that to just when I didn't have that, um, it's like night and day.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

It's so funny, Tina. It's so um, that's so real that when you're working or doing something that you enjoy, there's not so much the heavy lift, or sometimes when you're doing the heavy lift, you do it gladly because you're excited or there's underlying conviction in what you're doing. But I think you named an important piece, which is knowing what you do like, right? Um, so I think so often it's easy to get stuck in a job where you're not happy, you don't want to do that anymore, but you don't have an answer of what you want to do next because you've never had the chance to try out a few things with no pressure, just exploring things to see what it is that you do enjoy and what do you enjoy about what you enjoy, right? So, what is it about the thing you enjoy that's the most pleasurable to you? And I think that that's those types of things are like the breadcrumbs that can kind of open up some doors and some some new ways of looking at things.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Absolutely, yeah. I think it's also um, yeah, when you finding out what you I agree, like it's finding out what you like, also finding out the things that you don't like is also helpful to know. Like I, you know, it's kind of like dating. It's like I know I don't like these things. Um I think it's like what would you do for free forever? Like I would do this for free forever. Um, and then how do you make it to a business? Yeah, well, that's another challenge, but like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

And and I would offer sometimes for some people, um, it doesn't ever have to be a business, right? Like it could be a hobby, it could be a side hustle, it could be the way you spend vacation time, it could be all ways you meet people, particip communities you participate in. Each of those things, in my experience, has given me energy or community or friends or other things. So then I can go do my day job and I'm happy. It's fine. I'll do my day job because I have my big, exciting stuff I like to do on the side.

unknown 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

One question I have as a parent, you know, a lot of people have young kids and think that that might be the time to start a business or start something new. Thoughts about um or words of um advice for people with young children that might be thinking about starting something new.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah, I mean, I do think um I I don't know, and in I know in America you guys get four months' maternity leave and a break. Um, I just actually had a baby two years ago. And um as an entrepreneur, I I you know, as our I guess business owner, we don't you don't get as government support, but I think it is uh a lifestyle that kind of uh is a bit more flexible and helps you to um work on the things that are the most important in the times when you have the time and focus. Um so I mean I I have uh I have two kids. I have one who's nine, he's much more independent, and I just had a uh CC who's a year and a half. Um, and I've uh created a kind of schedule where I have a nanny that comes in three days a week and I uh can work uh um those days, and then Wednesdays and Fridays I have kind of as CC CC days. Um it's hard, it's a hard balance like at the stage of the company, but I'm just starting trying to think like um, you know, in an earlier stage of a company, uh yeah, just having that flexibility, I think, um is really is a is a a plus. Having a sleepy kind of brain is definitely a minus. It's really hard to like to do anything in a more in a dependable kind of way. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, I think when I look back, um, you know, I think that the hard thing is is when you're a parent of young kids, you it's your first time going through that experience. And so sometimes I felt my expectations were much higher for myself than were reasonable with two young kids. And when I look back, I think, gosh, they're only very, very little, you know, for a couple years. Then as soon as they're five or six and they're in school and a regular schedule, things really shift and change. And um, you know, if you've got really young kids, it might be a time to stay in the dreaming mode, stay in the exploring mode, stay in the conversation mode. And then once things start to get a little more stabilized as your kids are a little older, that might be a great time to be able to have more, simply a little more time to take bigger steps. But the one thing I love about your story, Tina, is that we're talking about a 10-year span here. This isn't, you know, um, this isn't a two-year period of time, but over 10 years, you've moved forward slowly and steadily and had to deal with COVID and pivoting and, you know, step by step continuing to kind of deal with the challenges at hand. And I think that's another piece that gets cut out of a lot of other stories that get told that we don't realize, oh, you know, they've been at it for 10 years. Um yeah. As a as a coach at this point, I've been at it for about six or seven years, and it's so much different than the first few years.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah. And you don't, I think the thing that um I also don't um take stock of is just like the compounding um learning that happens, and also just time is different. Like a year used to feel so long before, but now it's like not that long. And so the things that you the seeds that you plant early, um you get to see the rewards. Like it takes time to build, but I just feel like um, yeah, like thinking about the the like the horizon a little bit more um has yeah, kind of helped. I'd also say, you know, back to the to to kids, I would say um one thing I I do feel also, like I'll be very honest, is like like with when I'm with my kids, I feel guilty of not doing work. And when I'm at work, I feel guilty when I'm not doing my kids. And I well, that was like that was actually with my old my oldest um when I was at uh Facebook at the time, and um I was working long hours, um, and I hated that feeling. Uh I hated that feeling of having to choose um and feet just constantly feeling guilty, whether whether I chose A or B. And I did want to make an intentional decision um to just have a lifestyle where um I can own my decisions a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I love that. It's such thanks for naming that. It's such a bind that mothers are put in. My husband doesn't seem to struggle with that at all. Most women that I talk to that are moms really have that are kind of get into that bind of like, I should be at work, I'm not giving my all, I should be at home, I'm not giving my all, kind of not being able to be anywhere at any time. And so love that. Yeah, thanks for sharing. So, Tina, is there anything you're looking forward to with Secret City's future plans that you can share? Or um what's what might be next?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Um, this year we are designing two more uh games. Um, one of them is more kind of family friendly. It's it's at that village I mentioned, um just north of Toronto, and we want to go to all the pioneer villages across you know North America if we can. Um, we were really inspired by this experience in London called Phantom Peak, um, and also one in Los Angeles called uh Ghost Town Alive at Knotttsbury Farm there. And um they both uh kind of express this cast of characters, um, these sort of missions and adventures and mini puzzles. Uh so we're going to um take that inspiration and develop our own version of that um at the village. And uh yeah, I'm super excited about it. It'll be again more of a kind of PG um experience, meaning you can bring your kids, uh, they can meet the the teacher, the farmer, the uh the inventor. Uh, there's 10 different characters. Um, you know, there's a treasure map to be found uh to save the village. Um and uh yeah, I'm very excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Amazing. That sounds so fun. That sounds so fun. That's great. Um so if people want to experience the spaces and stories with Secret City, they can do that in Toronto. Um, it sounds like you've got multiple things happening there. And uh what about folks in other areas? Any ways to connect with you or experience some of your work?

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, absolutely. So we're also in Vancouver. Um we're in Edmonton at Fort Edmonton Park. Um, we are looking to go to some places in the US, um, TBD on that. Um, and we're currently uh working on a an act. We are going to do a little bit of tech. Um, but the idea is um yeah, to bring more local uh experiences via technology. So still developing, but more to say about that when that comes out. Makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

It's amazing. Thank you so much, Tina, for your time and your generous sharing. I just love this story of Secret City and just the spirit of fun and togetherness and the stories that you bring alive. It just sounds like such an amazing organization that you've created. Thanks so much, Courtney. Um, if anyone wants to hear more about uh Tina or Secret City, I'll have show notes that cover um the website and where to find Secret City and all their experiences. But again, thanks so much, Tina. I really appreciate taking the time to be on Evolution or Revolution.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Thanks, Courtney. And thank you. I really, really love that you're doing this. I think um if I heard this podcast 10 years ago, I think it would really give me a little kick in the butt and encouragement. Um, because I know how how hard it is. There's some golden handcuffs that are hard to break out of. And um and I think there's uh there's a lot of hope and a lot of exciting opportunity ahead.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

So um yeah, I love that you're doing this. It's been a blast. I love hearing all the stories and sharing these. And my hope is that people do uh find ways to expand on their talents and interests and their professional lives and make that a more rich experience. There's so much so much creativity out there. So thanks again, Tina. Bye bye. Thanks, Courtney. Hey, welcome to Coach's Corner. This is just my conclusion, my wrap-up of my conversation with Tina. I was so excited to be able to talk to her today and follow her story from someone working in a pretty traditional tech corporate job to making something brand new and creative, an experience that people can come together and share and enjoy. It was just fabulous hearing about how that came about. There were a couple points that really resonated with me. First, the idea that this has taken Tina and her family 10 years to build, this isn't an overnight situation or some immediate overnight success, but over 10 years they worked on this idea. And secondly, that they had a nice on-ramp. The fact that she could see that maybe building a first experience would take a little investment, some help from her brother-in-law, that the investment wouldn't be much to test it to try and see what this might be like. I think that testing and having some kind of an on-ramp is huge if you're exploring a new direction professionally, because there's so much we learn from having direct experience. So Tina and her husband and brother-in-law may have decided right there, it's not what we thought it was. It was fun, but I'm not up for doing it anymore. There's a lot of learning that they could have done in a short amount of time, but actually experiencing it and not just, you know, researching on the internet or writing strategy statements. Tina needed to pivot and be creative and figure out how she could use her existing skills to do some UX work under the Secret City studio. And I think that that's something that happens for a lot of business owners, especially at the beginning. We need to be nimble, we might need to take on some consulting, we might need to figure out ways that we can apply our skills to a marketplace, at least for some percentage of our time, for revenue, stability, what have you. And I love that Tina didn't do it alone. Finding a partner, in this case, she has her husband, she has her brother-in-law. It sounds like her uncle and extended family were involved at different in different ways. It's huge. And I know that doesn't work for everybody, but if you have a friend or a partner or someone that could help you at different points of your journey, you may be surprised at how much support is out there waiting to support you, your idea, this next phase that you're bringing to life. And lastly, figuring out what you're interested in and what makes you interested in what you're interested in can be a huge help in helping direct your resources, energy, and attention to something that's going to have legs for you over the long term. Certainly there are ways that we can make practical decisions that prioritize practicality or other values over doing something that you absolutely love. But when we're thinking about doing something we really enjoy, knowing the part that we enjoy the most will help us ensure that we actually get that part in what we're doing next. And um I think that that's a really important and really fun piece of starting to figure out what your next professional steps could be. So remember, you don't have to make it a business, it can be a hobby. You don't have to make it forever. You can do some experiments or trials. And at the beginning, it may make sense for you to experiment and explore and try a few things to see what it is that fits you. The worst that could happen is that you learn a little bit more about yourself. And the best that could happen is that you possibly find a path that's really uh meaningful for you to move forward. Thanks for listening to Evolution or Revolution. Again, if you can share with friends or family who might be interested in this podcast, I always appreciate if you can rate and review. And I look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks for listening to Evolution or Revolution. If you're interested in learning more about my coaching work, please go to my website at iconicleadershipcoaching.com to read more about how I work with people like you to become more grounded and reconnected to their peace and power. We can work to help you to develop a more subtle nervous system in order to stay with what's happening instead of reacting to it. With that clarity, you can act with clear intention, aligned action, and the courage to speak and decide what's best for you and those you care about. Do you have a friend who could benefit from this podcast? Please share it or leave a review. It helps people like you find us. Check out the show notes for more resources and more information. Big thank you to Midwest Got It for our podcast music, and I look forward to our next episode.