Erin Wade: Mac and Cheese Millionaire. From lawyer to restaurant innovator and author

"I think the journey that most of us are on with work really has to do with a process of self discovery that has followed us our whole lives.”

When Erin Wade was fired from her job as a lawyer, she decided it was time to take on a big project - creating a restaurant space that prioritized purpose, culture, and  hospitality.

Erin is the founder of Homeroom, a restaurant with a cult following in Oakland, California, focused on delivering the absolute best mac and cheese. 

She bootstrapped her restaurant, starting by investing her own money (no investors) and worked tirelessly in every corner—from building furniture to training staff. She was committed to launch a restaurant that was counter to typical dining culture. She designed systems rooted in transparency, employee engagement, and values that resonate beyond just serving mac and cheese.

Our conversation unpacks some of the lessons learned as well as her advice to others hoping to build something meaningful.

Erin Wade: https://www.erinwade.co/

Erin's Book: The Mac and Cheese Millionaire

Homeroom: https://www.homeroom510.com/

2018 WaPo Editorial Link 

Chapters

00:00 - From Lawyer to Mac and Cheese Entrepreneur
03:38 - Childhood Influences and Entrepreneurial Spirit
06:13 - The Journey to Homeroom: A New Vision for Restaurants
09:12 - Building a Unique Restaurant Culture
12:24 - The Financial Risks and DIY Approach
15:15 - The First Weeks of Homeroom: Success and Challenges
18:04 - Hiring and Team Building: Lessons Learned
21:04 - Creating a Transparent and Engaging Workplace
23:52 - Values-Based Decision Making in Business
27:02 - Support Systems for Entrepreneurs

EVOLUTION OR REVOLUTION is produced by Courtney Kaplan.

Website: Iconic Leadership Coaching.

Follow me on IG @iconicleadershipcoaching

Connect on Linked in @courtney-kaplan 

Music by Midwest Got It (IG: midwestgotit)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Evolution or Revolution, podcast about making big changes in your professional life. Our guests give us the insight scoop about how they did it. We share the origin stories, the wins, the challenges, and we get generous advice that can help you in your outcome. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Courtney Kaplan. I'm a coach and I'm a founder of Iconic Leadership Coaching. And I've always been fascinated by these kinds of transformations. Let the stories in evolution or revolution inspire you. Open your mind and build confidence that you can make the changes that you need to make as well. Thanks for listening. Hi, it's Courtney, and today my guest is Erin Wade. Erin started her career as a lawyer, but she quickly knew that that was not a great fit. So, Erin, you might know better as the founder of Homeroom, a restaurant that specializes in mac and cheese in Oakland, California. And for those of you who aren't in the Bay Area, when Homeroom opened in 2011, this was a very unique place that quickly became a huge hit. This has a kind of a unique school vibe on the interior. It was really warm and friendly. The mac and cheese is amazing. My personal favorite is Garlic Mac. And it really had the opposite of a chain feel. So as Erin started Homeroom, she wanted to do more than just open a restaurant. She wanted to build a business centered on meaning, purpose, and connection. So besides that, Homeroom actually ended up being in the 1% of most profitable restaurants. That's not the main part of this story. As Erin did more, she brought innovation to her restaurant and to the restaurant industry. She helped eradicate harassment by putting policies in place, creating a culture where employees wanted to stay and where customers felt cared for. In 2020, Erin sold Homeroom in a multi-million dollar deal and retained a seat on the board as one of the only women or the only woman at the time. Yeah. She's also the author of Mac and Cheese Millionaire. This is a really great, I think, very funny book that I've been listening to. And she talks step by step about this journey from lawyer to entrepreneur and how she went further than just the restaurant, but building systems to create an amazing workplace, not only for the people in her employment, but folks across the industry. And I recommend it to anyone who's trying to build out something of their own because Erin, you do such a great job of being very transparent about the amount of work, the uncertainty, the failures, the successes, that it really offers a lot of encouragement along with some wise advice. So welcome Erin Wade. Oh, thank you so much for having me. So, Aaron, um, when I read the book, you did a great job of giving an intro, talking a little bit about your childhood and the type of kid you were. And could you describe a little bit about how well how would you have described yourself as a kid?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Well, you know, in the book, I really every, you know, chapter has sort of starts off with a story from my childhood and it has a theme. And I, you know, I did that because actually I think the journey that most of us are on with work really has to do with a process of self-discovery that, you know, is one that has followed us our whole lives. I think it's sort of funny that we think of like, you know, education and then your career, but you're really living one life and the things that I think light you up as a kid, the questions that you're pondering. I think those are things that we continue to sort of um evaluate and play with in adulthood. And so I think I wanted to have that be sort of present. But you know, I was uh, I think really entrepreneurial, even from, you know, a young age, and and talk about that. And I love sort of trying new ideas and I was very um, you know, creative. Uh, and I was also raised in a very traditional household in terms of certain things that were valued that were not necessarily the things that I was interested in, you know. And so there was a real tension between, you know, pursuing things that I was passionate about, but that, you know, I was discouraged from ever pursuing professionally and things that, you know, maybe are more what we consider more useful. So, you know, what I think was the sort of joy of of homeroom was really being like, you know what, we're taught that these things are mutually incompatible. But I think that if you actually really pursue passion, I mean it sounds really trite. It will not always work out that, you know, it can um also be very financially successful and fulfilling in all these other ways, but it certainly can be. And we don't have enough stories like that. Um, I think it's a reason that many people are afraid to take risks and chances.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Um so I think I I wanted to show that it, you know, it was a false dichotomy. These things don't have to be in opposition with each other.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

It's true. We do kind of get pushed up against the decision of like take a professional path, like be a doctor, lawyer, whatever, or um, be a starving artist, that kind of false choice. And you can replace the professional title with any kind of title in that professional corporate world, and the starving artist could be any pursuit that isn't the corporate doctor lawyer situation. Yeah, yeah. But in fact, oh, go ahead, Erin.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Oh no, I was gonna say, and so many cultures have their own version of that, right? Like I grew up in a Jewish household where it was definitely like doctor lawyer were acceptable, but I have plenty of friends that were, you know, like, you know, of Indian descent or Mexican, like every every culture seems to have its version of like, here's the acceptable three careers you can have.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

So I think it's like a universal pressure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Well, it makes sense if you want the best for your kids, and that's where you think that might be the best for your kids. It makes sense that that would happen. And for you, lawyer and studying law was kind of where you ended up going in that choice. Tell me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, I mean, you know, I had been actually really torn. I, you know, before I actually ever was a lawyer, I actually tried initially out of school working in restaurants. And it was indeed very low pay. It was very dead end. And I was like, shoot, you know, um, I'd gone to Princeton for undergrad. So most of my making more money than me and doing things that were more conventional. And um, I was just like, God, this feels like this isn't going anywhere. And so I sort of gave up. And honestly, I went to law um, because I think lots of people who are smart and don't know what else to do, that's where they land, you know, and it's just easier to be in school because that's sort of someone telling you what to do and you know, telling you how to be successful. Um, but it really wasn't where my heart was. And um, so I graduated, I started practicing um corporate law, and um I was really miserable. And uh it turns out when you don't like what you're doing, you're also not that great at it. So I actually got fired and I'd never been fired from anything in my life. I was such an overachiever. Um, but it was a real wake-up call for me because I was like, you know, they were firing me with good reason. It was just because I wasn't trying very hard. I hadn't done anything terrible. I just, you know, they're paying me a lot of money, and I was the last person to ever raise my hand to stay late or work on a weekend. And I just I didn't care about what I was doing. And so I sort of came back to this concept of restaurants and I was like, you know, it didn't feel great working for other people. Like I didn't really see a future there. But what if I created the restaurant that I wish I could have worked at, a place where it's really joyful to be here and maybe we, you know, can pay people better and treat them better? And um, and so that was sort of where the idea for homeroom came from. Is I was like, all right, this is my own Hail Mary to see if I can really enjoy coming to work every day, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

So I did wonder about that at the very beginning. Did you have um this vision for what the restaurant would be beyond just, I think a lot of people think of a restaurant opening a restaurant, and maybe they think of like the decor or a certain kind of food. Did you have a more holistic idea of what you wanted to create from the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Well, you know, I think I had a very utopian idea with no idea how to follow, like no practical concepts of how to execute it. So I mean, I had very practical senses of how to create, you know, the food and the environment and things like that. But I knew I wanted it to be this really amazing place to work. But I think I honestly hadn't worked anywhere that I felt that way about. So I didn't have any examples to draw from, you know. But our first um, we had sort of this job fair, and you know, the ad that I posted was so utopian that I mean, we just had hundreds of people show up because people were like, I want to work there. But to be honest, I mean, I couldn't really deliver on that promise for many years. You know, it was a disaster when we first opened, and it was really me just experimenting and failing with lots of things I thought people would like, but it turns out maybe they don't. And that was a big part of why I wrote the book because I was like, you know, I mean, one, I think those stories are just funny and you could read it because um they're humorous and it's interesting and it's just a fun story. But I also was like, you know, for anyone who's trying to like build a workplace that's more meaningful, that's more enjoyable, you know, um, and more purposeful, like how do you do it? And, you know, what are some techniques that we use and what worked and what didn't work? And, you know, I wanted to just share those ideas with other businesses.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah. I think that points to something that is so important when we're thinking about making a big change or following a dream or an idea, is that it doesn't have to be one narrow piece. It can be a more a bigger idea of what the whole environment of what you want to create. Sometimes when I talk to my clients, I say, we don't have to focus on the specific of what you want. I want you to focus on what you want to experience. So if you want to experience freedom and respect and creativity, or that can come about in a lot of different ways. Um, so I really like that you started your concept or this idea of creating a restaurant with what you wanted to experience in some of your past jobs.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Totally. I mean, I think it was a sense of like meaning and purpose and connection and you know, freedom and the ability to be authentic and all these different things. But I mean, yeah, it was a real trial and error to figure out okay, well, how do you deliver on that? Like, how do you create a place that also functions that has those values, you know? Um, how do you do that in real life?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Um, and it's you know, it's hard. Uh, it's hard. Erin, especially I want to bring up the fact in case anyone's making the assumption that you're backed by a lot of money or that you had like bit deep pocket investors from the beginning, or tell us a little bit about that part of it. Like, did you did you were you starting with uh with investors or a lot of money or a lot of experienced partners who had run restaurants before? Because I think that's an easy assumption to make.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah, no, I mean, not at all. I was taking, I didn't yet own a house. Um, I honestly took the severance that I'd been given when I was fired. And then I took um just all the savings I had accumulated. Um which honestly, all of this, I mean, I don't put this figure in the book, but it was like$125,000 total, like everything that I had to my name, including like all the credit I could get a hold of. Like that's how much it was, you know, and um so I ended up also, I brought in a business partner who was just like me, had only ever worked in restaurants, um, uh, but sort of sold her on a vision, um, who brought in the same amount of cash, basically. And so that's when we built a restaurant on, which I can tell you is like extremely hard to do. I mean, we had to cut a lot of corners. We did a Kickstarter campaign, which was we were, I think, the first restaurant that was funded there. But I mean, we raised$7,000. It was not yet on the site that it is today where people like raise millions, you know. But that was a big deal to us. That was like a huge part of it. And then Homeroom opened. Oh, and I mean, I did like we applied to banks, like, but not no one would put any, it wasn't that we didn't want money from other people. We just like literally couldn't get it. And um so yeah, when we opened, we had only like two weeks of operating expenses in the bank. And at that point, we were both maxed out on our credit cards, on all of our personal savings. Like, there was no more money to tap into. So if it was not immediately successful, it would have been immediately a failure. Uh, so I don't recommend that to anyone, but that's just the situation we were in. And of course, we never budgeted to use all that money. You know, it's just till as old as time in any construction project, it's just gonna keep going over time and over budget. And so by the time we opened, it just was this like our risk tolerance, just kept having to ratchet up and up and up um until it was really, I mean, it was very stressful.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

I had a lot of sleepless nights over what would happen if it wasn't successful.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I can't imagine. I can't imagine. And you were putting in a lot of work, like literal DIY work into the restaurant as well, beyond all the financial support and and your savings. You were also there kind of building it out, right? Like finding the actual chairs and tables.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, you know, finish wood and all sorts of stuff. Like, you know, yeah, just having to, you know, paint walls and sealed floors and build furniture. Cause I mean, there was just no no budget to have any any professional do that. So I can't say I like recommend that, but there was no other choice.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So um we just did it.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I will say, as I read the book, I was like, this person has put in so much work into this, into this venture. And it really uh is a testament to your tenate your tenacity, the ability to be resilient and stick with it because there was not an easy part that I saw.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

No, but you know what is so interesting about it is that I mean, it I honestly thought it felt easier to do that work than it did to show up to that law office every day because it felt interesting and like I was always learning something and like I was part of something that meant something to me. So, as hard as that was, I always say, like, you know, my hardest day at homeroom was easier than my easiest day as a lawyer, you know, and um it's true because it was just something that meant a lot more to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

I was gonna ask you about that because the it sounded like the exhaustion of working in law and how much you really your heart was not in it at all was really evident. And um, I think that folks underestimate that cost when they're at a job that is not for them, right? It's easy for us to talk ourselves into saying, well, but the health insurance, and well, you know, this is what my parents are seem happy or my partner seems happy or what have you, without really assessing the cost to your own spirit, right? Your own uh energy, spirit, health. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah. And I mean, in fairness, I probably would have kept being a lawyer for much longer if I hadn't been fired for exactly those reasons. You know, I was earning a lot of money and I kept asking myself, is my unhappiness greater than this check? And I don't, you know, the answer had not yet been no, even though, like looking back, I'm like, oh God, what was I doing? You know. Um, so I think it's hard. I think it's hard to walk away. Had they not fired me, I might have done that for a lot, a lot more time. I think that was really the wake-up call that I needed to be like, wow, am I actually gonna choose to do this again? You know, like uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Right. I think that's fascinating. It's such a commonality I've heard in these interviews of people maybe somehow getting into this choice point where they have to leave the comfort and start their thing, or they're compelled and can do nothing else but start their thing. And then the things I hear people say are like, I can't believe how amazing it was once it got started, or things worked out in ways I couldn't have expected, or boy, it was the best time of my life. I hear a lot of people wishing they had done it sooner, those types of things which seem almost like the opposite of what most of us expect when we're stuck in the corporate job. You know, it just seems so risky on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, and you know, and sometimes I'll have people say, like, well, you know, you can look back with these rose-colored glasses because it was all so successful. But I honest to God think even if it hadn't been, I would have been grateful that I had tried. I mean, that's always like my advice to other people is like, you know, try. Because I do think that you will get something out of that experience. And I mean, you know, some people are in truly financially precarious places where, you know, maybe those kind of risks are just completely not possible. But, you know, I realized that my worst case scenario was the life I was already leading, right? Like I'd always have this law degree. I could always go back to sort of selling my soul for a paycheck. So why not take a risk that I might really love something or I might really enjoy it? You know, like that seems like what sort of life is for is taking risks on sort of your own happiness or finding greater meaning or, you know, and even if it doesn't work, I think, you know, take a lot of pride in having made that decision for yourself and having tried, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Mm-hmm. So you have leveraged everything you have, leveraged everything your business partner had. You're really depending on success in the first couple weeks to maintain the restaurant and allow it to be open. What happened in those first weeks?

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Well, you know, thankfully we were mobbed. And, you know, admittedly, it didn't, it wasn't we had been building an audience during the time we were building out the restaurant. We were doing a lot of like mobile food events, and you know, we got sort of lucky that that was sort of a hot thing at the time in the Bay Area. There's actually lots of really great opportunities where sort of like young and emerging voices in food had opportunity to, you know, that we're in didn't have formal restaurants or kitchens, could sort of put their stuff out there and try. So um by doing all these events, we had gotten our product out to, you know, thousands of people before we had ever opened. And that was really, really great to learn like what worked, what people like less, you know, like um, and just to get the name recognition and things like that. So by the time we opened, people were very excited for the opening. And so thankfully we were just really mobbed. But I mean, the problem is we just had never run a restaurant, so we're also grossly understaffed. I mean, for the we opened with a team of 14 people, which seemed, I mean, to me, like having never hired or employed anyone in my life, I mean, that seemed like a gigantic staff, but we would ultimately need for that space about a staff of 50 to do the volume we were doing. And so, you know, it felt crazy to work there. Just everyone was very overworked. That was really hard.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Well, to go through a process of interviewing people, assessing their skills or how they might be a good fit, bringing them on and training them, getting that team of 14, which does sound huge if you haven't built a team. 14 is a lot of people, right? That in itself is a huge learning experience. Were there things that you learned in that first batch of folks that you hired that was something that you kind of not only learned but needed to extend through the restaurant after that?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, I mean, I think something in the book I compare hiring to dating, and I think it's very similar. Like the only thing that you know during a traditional interview process is how good someone else is at talking. That's really all you know. And um, and that's so irrelevant, frankly, to most of what they're ever going to be asked to do, you know? And so as time went on, I learned more and more that to the extent you can get people to do some version of that role, you know. So we would pay people to come in and do trial shifts, or even when I was hiring executives, I would pay for them to do basically like a short consulting project or something to be like, what work do you produce? What is it like to collaborate with you? Because talking to you, plenty, like plenty of people are charming that are frankly not good at anything, you know. So I I think um it's just not a good stand-in. So, you know, one of the best hires I ever made was actually someone who on that first day, um, you know, I was interviewing, I mean, just hundreds of people, and we had to keep it really short, like these five-minute interviews, because otherwise we just wouldn't get through everyone. And that's just really inadequate, especially for people who've just been waiting a long time to talk to you. And I was trying to put on a really good face for everyone because I appreciated that they were taking all that time out of their day, you know, to be there. Um, but this guy, um, he brings me a coffee and he's just like, I thought you must be really like in need of a pick-me-up. And, you know, this is a hospitality role. And like he, instead of just being like, I provide this amazing service, like he showed me like I am thoughtful and I'm gonna like meet other people's, you know, needs um in a serving role. And so I think just always looking out for people who are really, you know, practicing what they preach more than just preaching it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Absolutely, yes. Absolutely. It's it's key. Um, so you build out your team, things start rolling, and then what how did you wait? So you build out your team, things start rolling, you still have this vision for creating a great culture. What were some of the components of that? Because I've worked in a couple of restaurants too, and it can be really bad. Even restaurants that have quote unquote good culture, there's a lot of sometimes harassment, sometimes substance abuse, sometimes petty theft. Like it's wild out there in some restaurants. So, what are some of the things that you knew you wanted to create right away or programs that you knew were going to be important?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Well, you know, I think a lot of these things were slowly learned over time. But I think, you know, one thing that we did that I really recommend in pretty much any organization of any type is decided to become like I really love the idea of transparency. Like I didn't love, even though we had a very traditionally hierarchical structure, people had titles and roles that would look like in any restaurant. Um, I never liked the sort of power and balance. I always thought, you know, everyone should sort of have a seat at a table and a and a voice, um, because everyone has good ideas and that's gonna help the organization be better and it's gonna make things more meaningful. But, you know, how do you structure that so that it's functional, right? And it's not just like every day is like a kumbaya or like a complaint fest or whatever. So um we uh ended up reading up and taking classes on this concept called like open book finance. And so I mean, the basic concept is you just you not only you know share a lot of the basic um financials of the company, but actually that different you hold a meeting every week to review it. Um, but I think most importantly, different people within the organization are responsible for tracking various numbers, and they're not just financial, you track really any number you care about. So we actually daily tracked like employee happiness and like, you know, our mission was to be the best part of people's debt. So how true was that for customers? How true is that for staff? Why? You know, what are trends that we're seeing? And so every week we'd have a meeting, and it could be everyone, you know, um, everyone was invited, it would be paid if they wanted to attend. Some people did, some people didn't, you know. Um, and but you would have people from all different levels within the organization, you know, that were tracking various numbers and would share what they saw. And so I think that really created a group dynamic of understanding, of responsibility, of problem solving, of engagement. Um, and it also created trust because when people would want certain things to happen, you know, you could come back and be like, how are we gonna do this? You know, or which, you know, what number are we gonna really move the needle on if we do that? Right. And it allowed us to experiment with various things and see how they were working. So um, I think that was a great tool that sort of uh, you know, helped us achieve some of like the meaning and the purpose and the engagement and you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah. I mean, these days it seems like transparency is a radical act, right? There's a lot of secrets, surprise announcements, things that are things are not transparent in a lot of workplaces to the benefit of the employer or the organization, not to the benefit of the employees.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, and in fairness, you know, a lot of people hear this and they like freak out. They're like, Do you know do they know exactly what you took home, or would they know each other's salaries? And it's like, no, like that's not useful. They can't do anything about those numbers, you know, like um, so a lot of numbers are aggregated, right? Like, what is um, you know, what is all of our labor number overall, you know, how much of that is hourly, right? Like if you really look at numbers that people can impact, and but it's also just a great, you know, or so like even when they would see the profitability number, even just them knowing, like, I don't walk home with all of that, you know, like people trying to understand for the first time, like what are profits even for, you know, and maybe like this is how we build future stuff, this is how we build these people at the end of the year, this is how we um, you know, even just like pay for improvements within our space. This is how we pay back all the debt it took to build this in the first place. Like, I think honestly, it was just so healthy for people to know like this is what happens. And I think a lot of people who lead organizations or an area of an organization think like, oh, if I share this, you know, they're gonna like feel like more entitled. But I actually think like most people read between the lines and they figure out what your basic, you know, finances are. And if you're not teaching about it and talking about where various things go, they make all sorts of assumptions that are actually like wildly ungenerous in directions that like, you know, um, yeah, I think people are always shocked that, you know, we even though we were very profitable for a restaurant, I mean, just making so much less than ever anyone would imagine. You know, they thought out of a$10 mac and cheese, you know, walking away with six or seven, and that's just numbers that are unheard of in restaurants, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah. Yeah. I think that I would imagine sharing that information too shows people they have the power to change that information, right? Especially with maybe customer satisfaction or having their team members feel cared for or what have you. You see how you're not just clocking in and clocking out, but your presence and effort makes a difference in a positive way or a negative way, and that that matters.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Totally. And you know, even for people who aren't attending those meetings, you know, because we sought such regular feedback to create those numbers, right? Like we had people fill out feedback forms actually every single day at the end of a shift. Um, and if you're experiencing a problem, you also had to, you couldn't list it without listing a potential solution. And so I think so, even if you never went to anyone's meeting and didn't know what any of these numbers were, you know, every day you were asked for feedback and to help solve problems. And then we would post like sort of a newsletter once a week and just talk about like what are some suggestions that people made that we adopted, you know. And so then it just helps people know, like, oh, my feedback really does make a difference. I can see things that I'm suggesting enacted.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

And um, you know, it's just really, I think, empowering when that can happen. That's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

That's very cool. And there were a couple other programs that you put together too that made Home Room unique.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we gosh, I mean, one of them is we sort of came up with this um, I guess I'd call it like a decision-making framework because we obviously had this culture of, you know, transparency and accountability. But I think, you know, we also wanted a functional way to like make values-based decisions as an organization. And so we instituted like one of our values was called collective success. And it's, I mean, really basically, you know, uh, like a stakeholder analysis. But um, what we would do is every decision within the company, big or small, had to go through the following process. And it would be, you know, what is the impact on um like the customer of like this decision? What's the impact on the staff? And what is the impact on the organization overall? And, you know, we would sort of like measure those things and we would make decisions that maximize the benefit to all three. And that sounds like maybe not a huge deal, but I mean, for if I look at all the places I ever worked, I would say the real thing that felt crummy about it is that, you know, they often existed maybe to maximize benefit to one of those stakeholders, maybe at best to two, but rarely to three. You know, like you look at something like, you know, Amazon is known as being a very customer-centric, you know, culture. Obviously, it creates tremendous shareholder value, but it's also known as a terrible place to work, right? Like they're not making their decisions through that lens. They really care about two of those three things. And I think the truth is most decisions, something in there is going to be in tension with another. And so to make decisions that are really trying to maximize benefit for all three, I think, you know, allows you to make, I think, really positive, sustainable long-term decisions and to have values that you can point to that, you know, support it.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So during this process, I'm curious, were you it's lonely being at the top, right? It's lonely having these responsibilities on your shoulders, or maybe even having an inkling of an idea that you might want to explore or try. Did you have someone that you could talk to, or did you really feel like you're kind of working through this on your own?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

No, I don't think there is such a thing as, you know, doing stuff truly on your own, or at least I haven't found successful work to look that way. Um yeah, I was part of a few like CEO organizations that put together these smaller cohorts of CEOs that would meet, you know, either like monthly or quarterly. And um I thought that was really, really helpful because even though it was a very collaborative work culture, you know, there are some things that you want to work on with yourself and with peers and with people outside of the organization that help you come back with a better perspective or approach.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

And those were really like so valuable and to this day, some of my favorite professional experiences that I've had.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

That's amazing. Yeah, I think even if we have the um sometimes it's fun to do it on your own or explore things on your own. It's so much faster and so much more fulfilling to do that in conversation with with someone else who maybe has can build on your idea or share their own experience or help coach you to continue to do your own best thinking. It makes a huge difference. And I think there's a misconception that people think like, oh, if I did something on my own, I would be on my own. I would be by myself. And that hasn't been my experience either as someone working as a solopreneur. There are a lot of us out there working, and especially um leading an organization or a team, you want to you want to connect with other folks in the same situation. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I think it's uh yeah, it's interesting. I think it feels like sort of the opposite of lonely because there's so many people that you can connect with that can either help you or relate to what you're going through, you know, even if not within your own, within your own company.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

I love that. Are there any other programs or anything else that you're particularly excited about or proud of that you were able to develop at at Home Room or in the restaurant industry?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, you know, because we had this very um, you know, transparent and collaborative culture, you know, we ran into, I mean, an unfortunate issue that many is restaurants run into. Um, at some point, uh a number of servers came forward and related that they'd been experiencing like sexual harassment by other um by guests, not by staff. And um I was really dismayed because, you know, we'd worked so hard on creating this incredible um culture. Uh, but you know, grateful that they felt comfortable coming forward. And I think because we had this culture that also, you know, if you're gonna show a problem, like you need to help work on the solution. I'm really, really grateful that these women were willing to come to the table and be like, all right, let's try to solve this together. So we held a number of meetings. We tried some things, honestly, that failed um pretty spectacularly. But um, then we ended up landing on this thing that was actually, I mean, I'm happy to talk about what it specifically was, but I'll talk about impact first. Like we sort of figured out the system that we implemented that worked incredibly well. And then I went on to write a very viral Washington Post article about it and testified in front of the EEOC. And now, I mean, I'm really proud to say it's used by restaurants and bars really around the world. So it was very, very impactful. And I think, you know, points to the power of what can be accomplished, you know, it's just one small restaurant. But I think if you create and get to be part of a culture that is, you know, transparent and empowering and, you know, uh that you can do all sorts of things that are really much more deeply impactful than just in our case, you know, selling macaroni and cheese.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

So yeah, I mean, I think that that was the the other thing that was so exciting about your story was kind of the breadth of the impact you ended up making, right? It is easy to simplify and say, oh, macaroni and cheese restaurant, interesting. But there was actually quite a breadth of impact you were able to make. And I'm curious to hear from you if you had advice for someone who's thinking about changing careers or changing roles or doing something different, or they have a dream of something they might want to pursue. Maybe they're in their own uh lawyer moment of not having any enthusiasm for work. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what should someone do when they're in that moment of like, I think I might be ready for a change.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

I mean, I think to the extent that it's possible, like just try something. You know, I mean, I mean, the book, you know, obviously focuses on the, you know, me building this one organization, but I knew that I love food and cooking for a long time and restaurants. And I did try lots of things that didn't work in them, you know, like I went and worked for free to learn how to cook. Like that's a great example. Like, if you want to learn how to do something, if you're not sure, you're like, oh, I might want to open a whatever, whatever. Like, call up someone who has that thing and be like, can I come trail you one day or can I do some stuff for free for you to learn about this industry? Like, I think it doesn't have to be that you jump like full force into this thing that you think might be interesting. Like, I honestly had to sort of fail at multiple or like fail, but try out various things in food and restaurants before I landed on the thing that actually worked. And I think that's probably common for most people. So I think to the extent you can get exposure to the thing you're interested in, like just start there, you know, and just keep following it and don't get discouraged if the first thing you try, you're like, ooh, you know, that wasn't for me. Because I think the odds of you landing on your perfect thing the first time you dip your toe in the water is probably pretty slim. But as long as you're open to, you know, seeing what you learn, I think you could land somewhere very different in a year, two years, three years, five years, you know?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah, absolutely. And you don't know how far that work will rip ripple out, right? It's not just opening the restaurant or devising a recipe for the mac and cheese. That's like step point one, right? Like there's so many more steps and so much more that you're gonna be able to do and invent and create and impact others beyond what you initially expect. Was that what was there any part of your uh homeroom journey that was surprising to you that you were like, wow, I didn't expect this to go so well or for this to be so a good surprise, not a not a bad surprise?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

I mean, I'll be honest, I think the whole thing was surprising, right? Because it was a journey I didn't really know what it was gonna look like. And I don't know what I would have told you, but I think that the best surprise for me was that I mean, I really I made a restaurant because I have always loved restaurants, I love food, I love like I'm obsessed with restaurants. Like I just really enjoy eating out, I love it as like a means of creativity, of community. Um so I think that I thought I would be deeply motivated by the guest experience as someone who really loves dining out. But I think what ended up surprising me is how much I loved business and the business of restaurants versus, you know, so I actually got much more fulfillment out of really creating these sort of behind-the-scenes systems and structures for my staff and allowing them to be the ones directly engaging with the guests. Like that's really where my joy was. And honestly, like sort of thank goodness, because I think that's actually more true to what it is to be a restaurateur, you know. Um, and so if I hadn't loved that part, it would have been really like hard, or I would have had to outsource a lot of the key functions, you know. Um but yeah, I don't think I knew how much I would love the concept of business and that sort of behind the scenes strategy work, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yes. Um, the thing I thought was interesting in the book, towards the end of the book, you talk about kind of taking on our a CEO title or ha giving yourself a CEO title, and that that wasn't just an obvious thing for you. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah, I mean, I was starting to get a lot of attention based on my Washington Post piece. And so, I mean, I was doing interviews with like, you know, the New York Times and um Forbes and just all these huge, you know, publications. And they would ask, like, you know, what is your title? Like, can I call you the chef? And I was like, ooh, I just I honestly didn't really know, and I didn't like have even like a universal title that was like used at work necessarily. Um, and so at some point I decided, you know what, I'm just gonna, well, I think two things. I mean, the funny thing about chef is I was like, oh, even though I didn't associate with myself, I was like, God, I did make all the recipes and I have a best-selling cookbook. Like it was bizarre that I didn't feel like that was an appropriate title. Um, because I just pictured someone who is really in the kitchen cooking every day. But, you know, that's not true of most chefs, honestly. Absolutely. So I decided I decided to take uh give myself the role of CEO. And that was really amazing because it I think just allowed me to like claim my power in a different way, and it really opened very different doors. I mean, honestly, in some basic ways that are so silly. Like I joined an organization that was only for CEOs. So if I hadn't given myself a title, I couldn't have joined. And that sounds dumb, but then now I'm in a room of CEOs and I really see myself as a CEO. And then people, you know, took me a lot more seriously, and I took myself a lot more seriously. So I always really encourage people if you have the ability to give yourself, you know, like a more um like the most impactful title that is could be realistically true of your job, you know, uh, do it because I think it changes how the world sees you, how people treat you, and how you see yourself.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

And a lot of times gives you the credit you richly deserve, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Like Yeah. In that case, it was so silly. Like I thought a CEO needed to be of some gigantic company with a whole list of C-suite executives under them. But I was like, when you look at what the roles are of a CEO, I was doing all those things. It was about vision and systems and strategy and leadership. And like, I mean, at the time I had a hundred people working for me, but I could have had five and it would have been just as true. So I mean, it, you know, I think, yeah, I think stepping into that was very, very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

And then in 2020, you um sold your restaurant. Is there anything that you want to share about that process? I mean, that's a whole separate kind of set of skills and understanding than the day-to-day operations or as the CEO role. What was that like to I guess I have two questions. First, were you planning to sell it? Um, and then secondly, what was that like going through that process of selling it and then walking out the door, resigning as a CEO? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

I mean, gosh. Well, I guess the first answer is no. I was never intending to sell it. I never, that wasn't why I built it. I, you know, I and I'd been approached many, many times over the years to sell it. And I'd never even taken a meeting. So, um, but in this case, you know, I'd been running it for a decade. And I have been thinking to myself, I was not someone who just wanted to like open a hundred homerooms. Like I did not think I would personally feel more fulfilled by multiplying the number of homerooms in this world. And so it was like this interesting moment where it was clear to me that the path of my business and the path of me as a person, like maybe it was time for them to diverge, which is like hard when you have, you know, built something that is a passion project and really feels like you're a baby, you know. So I had already been thinking in the back of my mind, I had been thinking of like, what is the structure to bring this company into its next chapter? Or should I start looking to bring in, you know, partners from within and try to figure out how like how to grow this without me necessarily even being the CEO anymore. And so I think for one, the offer came in at that moment that I was like, gosh, you know, that is another way I could go is someone can walk in with a giant check and be like, let me take this off your hands for you. And I mean, I didn't necessarily want that to happen. Um, but I was offered still a piece of it and a seat on the board. So it's not like they were like, take this check and walk away. You know, there was sort of an opportunity to have an, you know, some kind of influence on its future. Um, but yeah, I think it was just it was a confluence of a number of factors that made me decide to do it. I mean, including some that aren't sexy. Like I was getting a divorce and I was like, gosh, I'm gonna have to give this person a whole lot of money. Like this would also solve that problem, you know? Um, and but it was really hard. I mean, my you know, company was like was like a member of my family, it was like a child. And I always say it was like raising a kid for 10 years and then giving them up to another family. Like that's pretty heartbreaking. So I think on one hand, I'm like so proud of it because when you look at especially female founders that like grow something and you know get a multi-million dollar exit. It almost never happens, particularly never happens in the restaurant industry. Particularly if it doesn't happen with places that have a single location. I mean there's many things that I think I'm very proud of that show what a strong company this was and what an amazing thing our team had built. You know?

unknown 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

But it's also sad because you sell something and you don't have control over it and it changes and things I spent, you know, um many years putting together, you know, don't don't look the same anymore. And that's painful to watch.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Well it's interesting as we pursue dreams or we're working towards something that's important to us or building out something that matters to us, we don't usually think about the end, which inevitably comes in some format, right? There's there's an ending somehow. And for you to realize okay I've been running this restaurant I've accomplished so many things. I don't want to make multiple homerooms around the world that's not the direction I want to go it starts to be a more um it starts to become very real very fast that maybe there is an expiration date for for you that you might be ready for a new chapter or a new challenge or a new phase of life. And I think that that's so difficult for a lot of us to recognize.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Totally and I think you know I've often thought I really want someone to like make the movie that is more like I I think movies capture like singular stories, right? There's like something that is unfulfilling and the person goes on a journey and then lands on the new thing that is fulfilling but I think yeah what we never see is like the much fuller life cycle right like that something you're looking for something it is fulfilling and then that chapter concludes and then you need to begin the search over again and then you keep finding you know sort of these new things and I think like that is the nature of life and I think that's what you know business and careers can certainly look like I think that's what love can look like. I mean I think lots of things actually very often look like that but we don't have great examples of it great stories. And so I think when we go through those moments of transition oftentimes it's like oh like what's wrong with me? Why am I here again? Because we expect that if you like founded the company that was supposed to give you fulfillment it should do that in 10, 20, 30 years when that's you know not necessarily the way like human beings operate, you know?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Absolutely absolutely it's funny when you said movies don't show that I recently re we re-watched Forrest Gump. And when you rewatch that movie it's so wild because he does go through wild you're like how is this all in one movie? Like how did this how does this even hang together and make sense but most likely that's much closer to what our lives are like with different chapters or different segments or different eras than one and done right.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Oh my God a hundred percent it's funny I actually just recently rewatched that with my kids and it was such a delight to like see their reactions because that I agree that movie is just it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Yeah yeah so I'm curious to hear um looking back now on that experience at the beginning of the conversation you said you started the book with each chapter with a story from your childhood because so much of our life is about kind of working out those childhood moments or the who we are as a kid kind of coming to fruition and being what would your 10 year old self think of you now?

SPEAKER_01 47:53

I think they'd be shocked. I think they'd be really like impressed and but yeah I think um uh yeah it's funny I mean I think I'm like more myself now than I was at at 10.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

um and so I think yeah I think they'd be proud so I guess that's good news it's gotten better and better you could reach back and say hey it's only it's only up from here it's an amazing ride. Yeah yeah yeah um and so what's next? Any future plans you want to share? I'm gonna make sure I put the link to your book and um the link to your website um in the show notes but I'm curious is there what where are we in kind of establishing what's next?

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yeah you know I'd say for the past couple years I think well I wasn't excited to scale HomeRoom itself like into many units I was excited to scale a lot of the concepts and you know that's why I wrote the book and I do you know a lot of public speaking and I do some teaching and I invest in other people's organizations and I consult with them and you know so I think I've been really focused on like how do I you know spread this impact and this message you know and I've really really enjoyed having the opportunity to do that. But you know it's my earlier point about you know transitions and phases I think I am you know after having spent a few years doing that I'm like huh I'm interested to probably start building something again you know it's been fun to get to advise other people and write a book about it and talk about it and teach about it. But I really love the day-to-day like building of something so you know I'll probably be you'll probably find me building something new in the next year or two.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Not sure what it'll be yet though.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

That's amazing. That's amazing thank you so much for being a guest on the show I like I said I loved the book. It's written in a way that's really inspiring and useful to remember like oh wow there's a lot of work that goes into this and you can make a difference and a change and the story continues. So um I really appreciate that and thanks for coming on and being so generous with sharing the the your experience of this whole process.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Oh well thank you so much for the invite it was such a pleasure to be here yeah thanks hey it's Courtney I am back with Coach's Corner.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

I just finished my conversation with Erin Wade who was the founder of Homeroom Mac and Cheese in Oakland now there's a lot of locations around and she has sold and move on moved on to other ventures. What I loved about this conversation with Erin was the idea that a bad day doing what she dreamed of working on homeroom all the problems or challenges that she faced along that path a bad day there was better than a day being a lawyer. And to me that's really profound because I think it's a trade-off we don't think about that much. The other thing I loved was that it wasn't a simple story of opening a mac and cheese restaurant, right? It's about hiring, training, managing, understanding the operation of the restaurant, giving back to the restaurant industry with new practices and new ideas, having a bigger goal than just opening a restaurant, but having making it a great place to work with a specific culture and specific values that really honored everybody involved the employees, the folks coming in to eat, the um the every every aspect of that was considered which I think is a huge way of being and I think that it's a way that we need to move into more often considering the holistic picture of what we're doing. So great conversation with Erin. I recommend her book it's a great read. I actually listened to the audio version of it and it's funny it's insightful she shares a lot of personal stories and kind of the step by step and if you're starting any kind of venture it's reassuring to hear to hear her be so transparent about the challenges and how she overcame each of those challenges along her path. So thanks for tuning in we are I'm so excited to bring some of my other guests on this season. Love if you could leave a rating or a review or share this podcast with someone who might enjoy it. So until next time stay true to yourself. Thanks for listening to Evolution or Revolution. If you're interested in learning more about my coaching work please go to my website at iconicleadershipcoaching.com to read more about how I work with people like you to become more grounded and reconnected to their peace and power with that clarity you can act with clear intention aligned action and the courage to speak and decide what's best for you and those you care about. Big thank you to Midwest Got It for our podcast music and I look forward to our next episode