Danielle Malik: UX Leader's unexpected and gratifying path into housing solutions.

After 20 years in tech consulting and leadership, Danielle was laid off. She knew it was time for a change. But what? Tech didn't seem like a path forward anymore.

She made the unexpected but extremely gratifying shift into housing, becoming a housing provider for people challenged by the Bay Area rental market. Her company, Rising Tide Residences offers room rentals for men, women and families from diverse backgrounds, looking for stability and a chance to level up. These are people who have just come out of prison, have aged out of foster care, or have another  difficult situation that makes it hard to find housing. She's found success in making buildings into stable homes. 

Hear her story and what she plans to do next. 

To connect, learn more about their offerings, or to apply for housing, visit www.risingtideresidences.org

Link: www.risingtideresidences.org

EVOLUTION OR REVOLUTION is produced by Courtney Kaplan.

Website: Iconic Leadership Coaching.

Follow me on IG @iconicleadershipcoaching

Connect on Linked in @courtney-kaplan 

Music by Midwest Got It (IG: midwestgotit)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Evolution or Revolution, a podcast about making big changes in your professional life. Our guests give us the insight scoop about how they did it. We hear the origin stories, the wins, the challenges, and we get generous advice that can help you in your own life. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Courtney Kaplan. I'm a coach and I'm a founder of Iconic Leadership Coaching. And I've always been fascinated by these kinds of transformations. I let the stories in Evolution or Revolution inspire you. Open your mind and build confidence that you can make the changes that you need to make as well. Thanks for listening. Welcome to Evolution or Revolution. And today I'm really excited to have Danielle Malik as my guest. So, Danielle, I had the privilege of working with Danielle closely earlier in my career as she was a user experience leader. Danielle is known in the design industry for being a leader as principal of Hot Studio and the head of user experience at Future Draft. She has been a teacher at General Assembly, a conference speaker, a board member at IXDA, plus plus plus. I think there's more than I'm missing from that chapter of your career. Danielle is someone who is independent. She takes on problems by the horns and leads to solutions. She's not one that manages from a distance, but she's a maker at heart, smart, innovative, and hardworking. So I wanted to have her as my guest because today her life is very different, as she is now the co-founder of Rising Tide Residences in Oakland, California. She has started a new adventure helping people find homes in the challenging Bay Area market. And in this work, Danielle is applying those same brilliant problem-solving skills. So I wanted to get into it with you today, Danielle, and hear a little bit more about this amazing transition. And I'm just so happy to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Thank you so much. What a warm intro. It was a pleasure working with you as well. And I'm super excited to be here talking to you today.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, it's kind of a gift to have had professional lives that are long enough that we know people through chapters of their lives. So it's really great to have you here today. So just to start off right at the top here, I think I'd like to start by having you frame a little bit more about what you're doing today. What is Rising Tide Residences? Who does it serve? Tell us a little bit about that before we get into some of the how you got here conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah, sure. So we founded Rising Tide Residences about two years ago, a little over two years ago. And the premise is that we uh are basically doing room rentals. So we um have buildings that we're currently renting, and um uh ownership is kind of the longer game. Um and then the folks who are renting rooms for us are very typically referred from social service agencies and other places as folks who are, you know, just having some challenges in the market. And um those can be for a variety of reasons. Um one of the main demographics that we work with is re-entry, people coming out of prison. Um, we've also worked with transitional age youth. Um, we people uh who have gone through the juvenile juvenile system or foster care and have aged out at that point. Um worked with elderly, with veterans. So, really a wide swath of uh groups that we've been working with. And um really lots of just regular people as well. So some of the people just kind of hear about us and end up living in our residences, and maybe they don't fit any of those demographics that I just mentioned, but it's working. It's um it sounds like a crazy hodgepodge of people, but it's uh it's coming together.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

So when you say um renting rooms and residences, I think listeners may have an idea that this is an institutional or something kind of um institutional-ish, but you are doing this call from one of your homes right now.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Is that right? That's right. Yes. Um, everyone's gone for the day. And so I thought this would be a good place to kind of show what we have here and also um enjoy the the spaces that we have. Um we are not institutional, we're not transitional housing, we're not a halfway house. Um, we are permanent housing. So people, you know, if it's a good fit, they can stay as long as they like. And, you know, we love that stability as well. Um and I think kind of the the funny part about it um is we've done a fair bit of um Airbnb Airbnb as well, just as gap fillers um in between residents. And that's another kind of crazy aspect of this because um the people who come here to live, they're just regular people. And I think that's one of the best things about this work for me has been seeing um kind of through preconceptions or seeing through um biases or stereotypes into um people's lives, and that you know, everybody is just trying to get down, uh get by today. Um, everyone has their own story, and when you bring people together uh on a human level, um things resonate. And so bringing people in from Airbnb um has been a really interesting exercise in that because you know, I may get someone in um from Milan on vacation, or um actually in this area, Airbnb is a housing solution. And so you get a lot of people who are just kind of in between apartments or couch surfing and and need a place to stay for a week. So we've had exposure to all kinds, and a lot of those folks have actually converted as well and become full-time residents from their stay in Airbnb. It's certainly certainly not our long-term plan, but I think it adds some great color about just how broad of a of a spectrum we can reach here with this sort of housing. Um, we're not, you know, uh in the traditional sense, like affordable housing, because we're not looking to kind of undercut and and come in the lowest rate. Our houses are beautiful. They're recently remodeled. We have a house manager, they're very secure, they're in nice neighborhoods. It's certainly not uh high end. We're trying to reach folks who need to get a leg up, who need that stability and a path forward, um, but they can do so with with dignity and in community and in a in a safe and stable home.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Wow, thank you for that. That's really helpful in um kind of setting the stage. And one of the things that struck me as you were talking about creating real homes, real places for people to stay, people from all walks of life in all different moments of their lives. It struck me how different this is from the work that you might have been doing in UX, right? When you worked in a digital space, designing websites, apps, things that are on screens. Um, and I remember working and doing like user research where people are almost at an arm's length all the time. Like we it you weren't dealing with folks day to day with their real concerns and needs with something as important and basic as housing. People are actually a little bit more at a distance when you're working on in digital products. So I'm kind of interested throwing it way back. How did you get into user experience in the first place? Or what is a quick summary of how you started this first chapter of your successful professional life in user experience and kind of that digital world?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Well, I got my degree um in industrial design and quickly um became aware that it was going to be a little bit challenging to really have the career that I wanted in that field. Um one of the first jobs that I interviewed for was um to be a designer of, I'm forgetting the name of it, but they're like these lollipop coffins. I will call them plastic coffins. You know, it's a little toy, it's a plastic toy, and you press a button and the lollipop spins. So it's basically like a single-use sort of thing. And this was my first, um, my first interview was to basically create instant trash, instant plastic trash. And, you know, I thought, I'm not sure how well this is gonna work out. But luckily, I had been um already kind of paying attention to what was going on in the screens of the physical products I was designing in school. And then once I was out, I very quickly made that transition into screen design and user experience. And at that time, you know, there really wasn't much of a field at all. We were still, you know, the the rich internet applications were just starting to be a thing. It was a little bit of the Wild West. Um, it was a really fun and great time to be involved in things, um, a little bit on the ground floor. And we were feeling really good about the work that we were doing. You know, I think at that point in time we were um excited to like change the world in positive ways. I don't I don't think that's necessarily how it worked out um all the way, but you know, at the time I definitely felt better that I wasn't at least contributing um to the physical problems uh in the world. Um the other problems I may have contributed to are a different story. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

It's difficult now to remember a time before websites existed or realize that a whole the whole digital world was actually a new thing at one point. Thinking that there was a world beat before so many screens in our lives is really kind of a trip. And so you worked in user experience for how many years would you say? I mean, that was a big chunk of your professional life.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah. I would say almost 20.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah. So today as a coach, I talk with a lot of people who say, I've been in industry A or industry B for 15, 20 years, and I don't know if I want to do it or if I can do it for another 10, 15, 20 years. Did you have a moment like that when you were like, this is not going the way I thought? Or what was what when did you start to have these thoughts of maybe there was another direction you wanted to take your professional life?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Well, I became aware kind of early on, early relatively speaking, um the need to kind of diversify and future-proof my career a little bit. Um in user experience, I wasn't feeling sexism so much in my career. Really, very rarely, I did start to feel a little bit of ageism. You know, it's it's kind of natural because as you get further along in your career, you get more expensive. And when companies are looking to save some money, you know, they may hire less experienced folks. Um, and so I looked at like some of the teaching that I did like at General Assembly. Um uh, and I actually had another business um kind of early on where I was working with nonprofits and early stage startups, and then placing junior designers on on mentored projects to kind of help those folks at the at the price point they could pay and get junior designers some um experience as well. And so, you know, those kind of um little tangents I felt were a good way to future proof my career a little bit, you know, diversify a little bit. Um, but then I got laid off in 2023, at the very beginning, and things were just starting to take a turn. I felt that things were shifting quite a bit, and I was, you know, one of the early ones, but it just it was harder to kind of land on my feet and and find the next thing. Um I cast around for a while. I thought, you know, this could be a good time to make a change. And as my job search wore on, you know, it it became a little bit more imperative. I'd also say, you know, being something who's someone who's getting a little bit older and also, you know, personally I have some health issues that it became clear to me that sitting behind a computer was not going to be kind of a good long-term plan for me. In a lot of ways, I'm glad that it happened to me when it did, and then I was kind of forced to look around at other things because yeah, I know lots of folks right now who are kind of where I was in my design career or their career in tech who are facing the same things. And, you know, we're we're a little bit further down the road, and it's a little bit more challenging, I think.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah, I agree. I also think it's challenging because often those jobs, especially in tech in bigger companies, are so consuming that you don't have time to see the forest for the trees or step back and think, what happens after this, or what else am I interested in, or what could be my plan B, or a chat next chapter of my career. You're just so busy working, right? Um, and that certainly doesn't decrease as you get further along in your career and have more responsibility and possibly out more outside responsibility to caring for elders, caring for children, what community involvement, whatever that is. So I often I think for people it's a layoff or some bigger breakdown that happens that forces some reconsideration of what they're gonna be doing next. And so, how did you even start that process? Did were there other avenues you explored? Were there a couple different options on the table that you took a look at? Or what happened in that, in that 2023 moment when you realized, you know what, I probably need to take a new a new route?

SPEAKER_00 14:49

I feel very fortunate that um an opportunity kind of revealed itself to me. So as I'm looking around, you know, I can certainly appreciate this really ch difficult question of saying, you know, what do I want to be when I grow up when, you know, the previous thing didn't work out. It's like at once the world seems so full of possibilities and options, and finding clarity in that or finding your way through is a really tough task. So I had a friend and she was also my personal trainer um at the time. I would go to the gym, we would talk about various things. She was uh running another group home, and we were talking about real estate and some other things, and decided to uh make a play of it to go into um business together, opening up another group home. Now she focuses mainly on mental health, and so you know, we were looking at a at a different demographic, kind of a different angle on this one, and so we started Uprising Tide together. And um that she's she's since stepped away. She's got so much going on, and uh, and things are great between us. But um, it's been a really an interesting path to explore something completely new. Um, and I'm so grateful that I had her hand to hold, you know, having some experience in this and and showing me the ropes a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

And then at what point you have some conversations. I mean, I don't know, I think we all have conversations with friends or um one of my pla past interviewees talked to relatives, like, and at what point were you kind of like, hey, I'm actually committed to this, let's do this? And what was that experience like to say, like, hey, I've got, I'm in, we're signing contracts or we're making agreements or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Well, you know, one of the things about being an entrepreneur is a lot of times you don't expect it to be like your your whole world. It's not necessarily the whole ball of wax. So, you know, this was this was an endeavor, a project that we were entering in together, and it didn't necessarily preclude me doing other things. Um, it is pretty all consuming, you know. There, um, I spend lots and lots of time on this, but um, you know, she's got other things going on and and I had other things going on. And um so finding that kind of inflection point, it didn't feel quite as high as stakes. And I think that might be another kind of little bit of advice to to share is that um when you think that like, okay, that's the mountain I have to climb, it can feel a little bit more challenging to kind of put all your eggs in that basket and and think that that that one goal is going to be your your full pursuit. When in reality you kind of have to put several feelers out. You have to try a few different paths, and you may end up taking multiple paths, you know, not just not just uh try A, B, and C and and go with B.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yes, agreed. It's I think that we make the problem bigger than it is. And I love that framing of here's an opportunity, let's try this project instead of here's my new life mission or this is what I meant to do. I think people put in some of that language prematurely. Um and it just raises the stakes so that it's hard to take any steps forward.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

I think a lot of people don't necessarily use the same principles that they might uh counsel others uh and apply them to their own lives. So, you know, in the tech industry, people are very familiar with lean UX and, you know, fail fast and this idea of conducting experiments to find out if if this is the right thing. You know, you you have to do that with your own life. You have to find out ways to like test the waters and and see if it's it if it's resonating and give yourself enough time too. You know, you can't, I mean, fail fast can't always be the option. Um, but not investing all of yourself into one idea or putting all of your eggs in that basket.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah, smart. So I love this framing that this is a project or an opportunity you're gonna kind of take look into and get involved with. And as you got started, what are some of the more surprising things that you came to realize early on? Was there anything that was like, oh wow, this is a good thing, this is a surprising thing?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Well, I knew absolutely everything was going to be different than what I was used to, you know, and um and I'm a pretty adventurous person. I was signing up for that and I knew um that it would require a lot of me in terms of like learning curve and growth. And um it did not disappoint in that way. Um, you know, I'd say one of the interesting things for me, I mean, first of all, just for context, you know, these these people that I'm working with, the residents, like I'm in their home. You know, it's not like a uh typical work relationship where you're both um at in a workplace and you know operating on on that particular level. You know, you're in this business, I'm interwoven in people's lives in, you know, pretty significant way. Sometimes I see them when they're not at their best, or um sometimes I see them when they're in their private moments and and you know, not uh they don't have their game face on necessarily, right? Um, and also the agency partners that we work with. You know, now I'm working with nonprofits, um, I'm working with government agencies, the style of working for those folks is definitely a lot different um than in tech. And so there was um there's certainly a learning curve there and and a bit of culture shock that that took some overcoming. Um yeah, so those are those are a couple of the big ones. Um, I would say the other surprise that I had is just, you know, I I knew it would require a lot of me, but the level of personal growth that has come with this role, um, I'm incredibly grateful for it. It's just been more than I ever could have imagined. I've had so many opportunities, you know, to grow and to learn more about different scenarios, different people, and um, and learning about myself as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Wow. And when you talk about personal growth or growth opportunities, would you say overall that that's been it sounds like it's been a positive thing that you appreciate? I know sometimes people say like I've had a lot of challenge tunes and it's been very challeng, you know, I've had opportunities. But it sounds like you're appreciative of how you've been able to grow through this.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. My my partner can a attest to the the fact that I go home so many times, like when I'm I've had some challenging situation and I will be able to talk through it with him about um kind of the nuances and what my biases were going into and and how I'm opened my eyes to the way the other person is seeing it and I didn't know this thing and I had to learn it and um and you know asking for forgiveness, asking for grace, um letting people know that um that uh I'm learning too, and you know, if I make a mistake, I'll try and do better in the future. And um yeah, yeah, I have I have nothing but great things to say about that journey for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

That's amazing. Yeah, imagine you're not coworkers with the people that are renting from you at in any in any regard. You're not peers. And it sounds like the folks that are finding you and renting space from you are in probably difficult transitional moments. I mean, just moving, best case scenario, moving or changing where you live is difficult. Adding on those other complications or other challenges can really be a difficult spot for people, you know, in those moments in their lives.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, it certainly can. And just to add a little more color on that one, so I mentioned that we we um work quite a bit with the re-entry population, so formerly incarcerated people. And some of the people who have come to us, um there's one particular program that we worked with quite a bit, um, CROP, and they have a re-entry program that's a year long. And so people come into their program um pretty much directly from prison, uh, and then they help teach them life skills. Um, they they do workforce development with them, you know, do job training with them and kind of support them in lots of ways. It's a really fantastic program. And we've been partnering with them and housing some of their folks. And so some of the people who come to stay with us have been in prison for a really long time, and they come out and um someone will hand them a phone and they're like, I how does this work? You know, um, I mean, they're not quite um completely uh clueless about it, but the learning curve, as you can imagine, is like really steep. And so just understanding, you know, some of the shame that they might have about like not knowing how to use those things and some some patience with helping them kind of ramp up and and learn how to use these things. Uh the house manager that we have in in one of our buildings is uh really great and patient and works a lot with folks in that scenario. I think it's just a good example of like where these people have unique needs that you have to understand um and meet them where they're at. And and sometimes you can make a really huge impact on something that seems really small.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Amazing. Yeah, I can't know. I would imagine that transition is just a a really big step from one way of life, possibly for years and years, to stepping into a world that's changed a lot. It's changed a lot. And figuring out how you're gonna make your own life in this new environment that you're living in, this new um way folks are living. So I'm curious, do you find yourself using any of the skills and talents from your UX days? Does any of that port over? Do you notice you yourself borrowing things from previous roles?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, I think like a lot of people who are in, you know, my particular niche, um, I'm a problem solver. That's one of the things that excited me about the projects that I worked on uh as a consultant in tech. And so I feel like I'm doing that same thing now in a lot of ways. Um, the user research is something that I'm definitely uh kind of pulling from those experiences in the past, making sure that I'm kind of learning lessons and adjusting course along the way based on what I'm hearing, kind of that active retrieval of information um from the market, from the residents, from the agencies that we work with. Um yeah, the the people management, the leadership skills definitely always come in handy. Um, and uh my flair for design. I, you know, I was never a graphic designer. Um, and I would not want to represent myself as one, but um, guess who does the marketing materials for us and has um exacting standards around those? That would be me. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

I love it. I think that brings up a point that a lot of people miss too when you're changing professional, changing careers. So many of us that do that in a point in our lives when we're not starting from ground zero, right? You have skills, you have relationships, you have experience, you might have some financial support. There's a lot you have at 35, 45, 55 that you didn't have at 25, usually. And I think that that's another big piece that can be so useful when people are thinking about what might be next in their careers to really understand there are a lot of skills and life experience, professional experience that's going to be super useful in their next, in their next adventure.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

It's true. It's true. And then I'd also reiterate, you know, you have to be open to to ramping up quickly on the skills that you need to learn, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Don't don't be afraid. Most people can rise to the occasion and acquire the skills that they need to in in a new role.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yes. Yes. And so what do your days look like now? What what take take us through a typical day of what a day in the life looks like at Rising Tides for you?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

So um doing a fair bit of marketing and outreach always. So, like tomorrow I'm going to a re-entry conference. I'm working with someone who's helping us out with uh sales and marketing and uh flyering. Um, we just opened up a new home that's focused on women with younger children. That's where I am now. And um, so this is a new demographic for us that I'm very excited about. And um, so we're actively looking to fill up this home and getting the message out of visiting uh daycares and preschools and you know, finding places where um we can reach some single moms who are looking for stability with the child. I'm also doing a little bit of operations, ensure that like if something needs to be fixed, it's taken care of, or um there are lots of like little bits and pieces that need to need to be attended to there. Um, and then I'm looking at the next home that we're gonna acquire. And so I have a fair, fair bit of um going with that right now. I've got one project that's under negotiation with a university in California to house a program for them over in Hayward. Really excited about that. I wish I was closed on that and could announce it, but um we're not quite there yet. Uh, and then there's another house that I'm looking so we could um potentially take on another men's unit. So currently I have one building with uh a men's apartment on top, a women's apartment on the bottom. Um, there's this uh women with children home. Uh there's this potential place in Hayward, and then I'm looking at another men's unit um in Oakland as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

It's a huge progress in a couple years.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah, yeah, it is. And, you know, just because I like to be transparent, I'm I would say one of the other challenges about, you know, being someone who switches careers, um, someone coming from tech, um, it has been a learning curve in that respect as well, and um a chance to put my money where my mouth is as well. So, you know, starting up a business and getting it to this point um has required some capital investment from me. And um, you know, this isn't the hugely lucrative career that I had in tech. And I'm okay with that because tech gave me the money and the padding that I could even go off on a path like this and try it. And that success, you know, is not necessarily monetary at this point, but having the chance to give back, to feel like I'm taking some of the spoils of my previous career and applying it to this new thing while I build it up has been very rewarding as well. And so, you know, I think that's another place where people who are who are seeking a new career kind of get stopped at that same point where they're like, okay, here's what I was making before. Now I need to find something that's gonna put me right there. Maybe they don't they feel like it's a failure to drop down any lower than that. But um, you know, I would I would encourage people to start thinking about investment in their communities as well and um other sorts of investments that uh aren't necessarily monetary in in um in framing.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, absolutely. Would you say you're happier now than you were in tech, or is that not really a great way of framing it?

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Yes, and I mean it's just different, you know. I'm feeling so much more rewarded by what I'm doing now. I feel like the skills that I'm learning, the growth that I'm experiencing are both worth their weight and gold. I tear my hair out a lot on a regular basis. You know, this is a difficult thing. It's been a tough nut to crack and to figure out how to make like a truly successful business in this. Um, it definitely takes a toll on you. I'm I'm trying to think there's there's something Buddhist that I would butcher if I tried to repeat it, but it's um something about you know, the goal of life is not comfort. Like that that is not necessarily the the goal to enlightenment is is comfort, you know, and and there were some things that were fun and easy before, and I certainly um enjoyed my work in the past, and now I just feel like what I'm doing is more important um and it reaches more people, and no, it's not always comfortable for me, it's not always easy, but um it's beautiful, and I'm I have zero regrets for having gone down this path.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

It's interesting. I think there is kind of a cultural directive to find comfort and luxury, and then that is going to be the satisfying um place that you can finally find peace. And so often it's not, right? Um and so often we're willing to tolerate a lot in hopes that you know we'll find comfort or some kind of luxury that'll make us feel safe. And um, I don't think that it often works out that way.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, the goal is very often ease, you know, just like I wish things would be easy, like why is everything so complicated? Why is everything so hard, you know, and and that's kind of dead end framing, you know. It's just it's just hard to get out of that because life is always messy and it's always complicated, you know, and there's always something, there's always, you know, your your little family dog with one foot in the grave, like gonna topple your apple cart um in a in a particular week. Like, you know, bad things happen, but we're resilient. And I I believe that having the mindset of um finding finding joy where you can without necessarily um tying that to ease, finding growth where you can without tying that to comfort. You know, that's that's been more of my philosophy as of late. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Yeah, that's beautiful. Um, so the listeners of Evolution or Revolution are often in their own season of transition, or maybe at the very early stages of thinking, maybe there's something I should do next, or I just got laid off, or I could get laid off. And if that happens, what would I do next? You've given so much wonderful advice throughout this podcast, covering in some thoughts about how someone might take on those early steps, what people could focus their seeking on. Um, is there any other words of advice or anything else you would want to share with someone if they're at this kind of precipice of change that they are not controlling? I hear a lot of people talk about AI might be taking my job. I I got laid off twice. I don't know what's happening next. And there's a lot of fear there. So if someone's starting their own season of kind of change, what might you advise?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, well, you know, first of all, um, I have a great deal of empathy for this. I know these are a really difficult questions for people to face, and it doesn't matter that it's happened to other people. Like it just when it happens to you, it just feels completely um different and it's and it's hard to prepare yourself for that. That said, I would still say that first of all, thinking about it sooner rather than later um is is a better approach. You know, don't wait until the axe falls or don't wait until you've finally given up on your job search, you know, two years in um to start casting about for the next idea. Um the other like really big thing that I would say is that so often when people are complete contemplating new careers, the first question they ask themselves is like, what am I passionate about? And they, you know, think about the things that bring them joy or the things that they've had passion in the past. They're very often kind of hobby related as well. And they try to figure out how to fashion a new career out of their that. And I feel like there are a few problems with that. So, you know, one is that very often your passion may not sustain you going forward, it may not sustain you um monetarily, there may not be an actual interest uh industry around that. Um, and you know, it it may not be the path forward kind of logistically. Um, but also you pigeonhole yourself too much with that thinking. You know, I I think it's much better to start thinking about um what are the opportunities out there? Uh I feel like that's one of the keys to my story is that an opportunity presented itself to me. Um, I wasn't completely passive in that. I have been having conversations. So I was thinking about new things, but then I had the guts to go after something that I wasn't passionate about. I didn't know anything about. I just kind of jumped in, I treated it as a project and I treated it a little bit as an experiment. And so um look at the opportunities that are out there and start envisioning yourself in those opportunities. Um, and a lot of them you'll say, no, that's not me. Um, I couldn't do that. That wouldn't make me happy. I get that, you know. But at least go through the thought exercise of looking way outside the box and evaluating the opportunities around you versus um just, you know, making your own opportunities via the paths that you're predetermining. Um I I was joking around with a friend the other day about how I think there there should be like a job randomizer or something where you just like it'll pop up a job and then you have to think about yourself in that job for like 30 seconds and then move on, right? Because um so often you just can't even think of all the jobs or in the world, you know, that you could potentially do. It I think it could do a few things, you know, one is that it could make you start thinking about the skills that you do have that would fit that role that maybe you hadn't thought about before. Um, and then it also, I think, as a forcing function, kind of opens up your perspective about what you could be doing. So um, you know, this is this is not a a thoroughly tested methodology here, but this this would be my recommendation for people.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

I love it. I think it's fantastic. A job randomizer is brilliant. I think it is it would be an amazing way to kind of get out of your own head and put yourself in r radically different spots and radically different roles. That's fantastic. And Danielle, when we were preparing for this um podcast, you said something that I'd love to close our conversation on today. You talked a little bit about how where you are now combines some things you didn't expect to combine in a way that you're makes you particularly happy and satisfied. Do you remember that? No, Courtney.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

No, you're gonna have to jog my memory or sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

You talked about, you said, you know, it's funny um opening Rising Tide Residences has combined some things that I didn't expect that I really love. So you talked about the interior design of the spaces. These aren't just, you know, you're not just renting a place and opening the door and saying, hey, everybody, come on in. You're curating and making some beautiful spaces for people. Um, and beyond the the people that you've been able to meet and the breadth of folks that you've been able to interact with. But it sounded like this was unexpectedly drawing on some um interests and talents that you had that you hadn't been able to express professionally before. And I think that's another important thing for people to remember is um I understand you're kind of responsible for doing a wide variety of things day to day. Um, but you also get the opportunity to do the things that you love the most in some cases, um, and be able to say, oh yeah, you know, this is something that I'm particularly passionate about and I want to do this part of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah. Yeah, I I have thought that this role um it has, and you know, it's it's always kind of a mystery to me. Is this like the thing that was in my subconscious that I like worked into this role? Um, or is it what it required, right? But as you mentioned, you know, the interior design has been a really um fun aspect of this for me. Um the uh personal interactions that I'm having with people and kind of expanding my world a little bit more is something that I've always wanted. Um, I hadn't set out on this path intending to do anything with um justice, justice reform or justice impacted people. Um, although that's been an interest of mine for a really long time. You know, I felt like our incarceral system is very unjust and um have long thought that um that it's a a good cause worth fighting for. And I'm finding myself, you know, somehow involved in that, right? And I, of course, had a hand in all of this. Like I, of course, am the one who um is helming this business that has these aspects that just so happen to be the things that I love. But they weren't the conscious decisions that I started off with. And they were things that I was kind of able to work in or tap into, or hey, I'll do that, or let's focus here, right? So they don't always have to be the goals at the outset, you know, but you can find ways to work them in, and and it can be a really beautiful thing. I feel like I have like this bespoke suit of a a job, you know, it's it's not an expensive suit, let me tell you, but um, but uh it fit it fits me perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Amazing, amazing. It's such a treat also to be able to talk with you just two years in, you know, that you're still in the early phases of this, and um, this transition has been pretty recent for you. So I really appreciate um you taking the time to come and speak with me and share all of this amazing insight and wisdom that's so fresh in your mind. And I'm really excited to see where you take rising tide next. It sounds like you've got some great plans in place, and I'm so thrilled to know you're out there in the world doing this work and um finding so much success in it.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Thank you so much, Courtney. Thank you for inviting me to be with you today. I'm of course super impressed with the work that you're doing as well. I mean, you yourself are someone who's, you know, experienced that trans transformation yourself. You know, you're not just talking the talk, you're walking the walk, and it's been beautiful to watch your transition. And your evolution as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Thank you, Danielle. Thanks so much. Hey, it's Courtney, and I'm back with Coach's Corner to talk a little bit about my conversation with Danielle. Oh my gosh, that was such a great conversation. I was so thankful for her generosity in sharing her journey from ending a 20-year career in tech and user experience where she was successful. She enjoyed what she did. She had had many amazing chapters in that in that time of her life. And to see that end at a layoff and have her take advantage of this new opening to start something new. I particularly liked that she started something new through conversations with real people. So often when we get laid off or something ends abruptly, we can find ourselves scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, looking at LinkedIn, and just feeling more lost or frustrated or disappointed or hopeless. And so, although she didn't talk about it explicitly, having a conversation with a real people in her life and seeing what they're up to, what they're doing, what they might be interested in, how they might be able to collaborate and taking that potential and saying, yeah, I'm in to do a project, right? I'm in to give this a try, to get to do a project, and we can see where things go. The other thing I really enjoyed hearing was her satisfaction in this new chapter, that it's difficult, um, it's challenging. Someday she wants to tear her hair out, her hair out, but the personal growth that this has opened up and some of the true satisfaction and alignment with her values that this new opportunity has given her. I think that that's something that has no price tag. It's amazing to be able to live a life aligned with your values and be able to contribute your own talents and experience in a way that matters for you, in a way that matters for you. So I hope that if you're in a career transition or thinking about what might be next for you, there are takeaways you have from my conversation with Danielle that you find useful. And I would love to hear your comments and feedback about the conversation. Um, and as always, thank you for listening and stay true to yourself. Thanks for listening to Evolution or Revolution. Please go to my website at iconicleadershipcoaching.com to read more about how I work partnering with people like you to become more grounded and reconnected to their peace and power. You don't have to leave your job to make things better. Do you have a friend who could benefit from this podcast? Please share it or leave a review. It helps people like you find us. Check out the show notes for more resources and more information. A big thank you to Midwest Got It for our podcast music, and I look forward to our next episode.